Don't worry Tony there is no chance of the UK leaving. It's all bluster but is does seem to have reduced the EU budget so thanks goodness for that.
It really does not lack a certain irony that a nation that managed to billet in its history so many ex-pats in its many colonies is now debar its own citizens their right to vote, if its citizens decide out of their free will not to live in their homeland but to live in another sovereign state. I find this is diametrically opposed to direct democratic rules...,- but it speaks at the same time a lot for the forbearance of its citizens to this state not to obtain a decision on legality at the European Court...
Many years ago, in the village of Reach on the Cambridgeshire fens a particularly forceful character declared himself king and the village an independent nation. I web searched and can find nothing of that story. I thought it would inspire 'Clarkland', but it does not seem to have inspired anything. It was always said that the 'fen tigers' were all inbred and mad, maybe that is exactly what is wrong with nations.
I wake up and my first thoughts are more likely to be German than English, whilst working and doing these things I write English, but socially use almost only French. I don't mind about reading, preferring original texts in languages I can read. Had everything panned out as we wanted it could as easily have been Portugal as France, but there are places in this world such as Viet Nam, Brazil, parts of India and Cuba where I like the people and to hell with politics, given the chance I would live there. So Norman, like you, where I put down my head to sleep of a night is where I live, what I am does not fit the shoe of nationality at all.
It's a strange thing Brian, and you have travelled a lot like me, but I have sometimes wondered about this whole 'Nationality' thing anyway. Ignoring (where possible I admit), the whole bureaucratic bit of today, most of us haven't got a clue who we are 'nationalistically' or even biologically. Nations are man's creations and I have a wonderful book about the movements of tribes over the centuries which really does make cobblers of the whole thing. I could just as logically call my back garden the 'Independent Nation of Clark' and it would have just as much historical validity in 200 years as any other.
There's a thought?
There is an additional point Norman, that you actually bring to mind. We have but one life on one small world. To waste our time quibbling over which rock is best and who wants to have a say in what on that rock is indeed cherry-picking. Nearly all of life involves some kind of decisions, compromises and who knows what, so discontent because somebody is going to take your rattle out of your pram is a bit late once you have been out of it for many decades. I would argue, and Norman made me remember this in what he was saying about Australia, that none of the people Brian C is saying would be dumped was kidnapped and forced to live here. They made choices. Part of that choice had of necessity to include not liking it, not affording it, seeing the end of the EU or any other contributory factor. To manufacture a can of whinging worms on behalf of people who made choices with all of those cards laid out on the table seems rather well suited to those who would moan anyway rather than people who are satisfied with what they have and will make sure they keep it. It does seem a bit 'why doesn't Intermarché sell Marmite?' to me. I had my earliest childhood years in immediate postwar Germany where my father served in the occupation army but not cosseted within the confines of a military community. I have never felt completely settled in the UK and chose a career that kept me out as much as possible, it is how I have lived and how my life shall end. I said early on and agree with Jon and Norman, I have no right to vote in the UK, but it would be good to be allowed to do so here. I don't necessarily want to become French but more of my life is now Swiss than anything else, bar my passport I guess, so if the UK goes off on a sulk on its own I shall plump for that. It's like a divorce - UK and I are no longer together. In contradiction, if Scotland (which I doubt) goes off alone I may seek nationality there.
I think there is an age thing that impinges on this discussion. Brian C's opening remarks indicate that he is even older than I am if he has memories from 1936, which would suggest that he is in his 80's at least? (assuming recognisable memories kicking in at 4 or 5 years old?). My own start at about that age and the War as I was just outside London and there were an awful lot of big bangs around the place. So he remembers from 1936, so let's say he is remembering at age 4(?) that makes him eight years my senior, so would be 81.
Now this surprises me a little as most of us 'lesser oldies' do tend to settle down after a while and decide what we want out of life. Note I say 'most', which should read 'most of those I have met', which puts it into perspective a little.
There seems to be in many quarters to want the 'best' of both worlds. To be 'what we are', as in being British, and wanting the best of 'what we can get' as being EU members. A similar thing happened in Australia, when so many Poms left the UK presumably for the better life that Australia offered. If not for this then why did they leave? When they got there, they often became the famous, or infamous 'whingeing Poms'
Probably because they couldn't get Marmite and had to setle for Vegemite!
Australia had a great response to people who didn't like Australia - and I quote almost verbatim the PM John Howard (at the time) who said 'Everyone in Australia has the God-given Right to leave if they don't like it here'. Less politely other Aussies said 'if you don't like it then 'piss-orf, or words to that effect.
More politely I would suggest that apart from those younger people seeking a 'life experience', and I was one, those who have decided to come to France, presumably for a better life, should make their minds up. IF then place is not living up to expectations, then leave. If there are problems, as there are everywhere, and you take a commitment to the place then 'commit'! If not, I fear you really do open yourselves to the charges of cherry-picking (as suggested by Cameron in the UK).
Few, if any places in the world are perfect, but for my money France comes pretty close. Yes the bureaucracy can be a pain in the you know what, but obversely it is amazing how it can work to help you when things go wrong.
I agree with you Jon, that I have absolutely no rights to vote on issues in the UK. I think by becoming French I will earn the right to have a say on issues in France and within the EU as an EU citizen.
It's a strange thing, we are born into a society and have no say in the matter, so why are we locked into being 'British' on that basis. When we grow up and if we are welcomed, why not have an informed choice rather than being stuck with a basic, not even biological choice?
Vive La France!
Hi
I fully appreciate the need to feel secure where you choose to live. Ex pats should not be asked to make a black and white decision - its natural to want a route back to all that is most familiar if circumstances change.
However I do not think ex Pats ( I am currently of that status ) should have the right to vote in their former country on most issues, thats not democracy in my view - those who vote should be those who are directly affected. Personally I think you have diluted democracy once you start allowing those who have left to have say in their absence.
Sure if the UK leaves the EU then special consideration is warranted but on day to day matters I do not agree, you cannot have your cake and eat it - whats this idea that you can enjoy a sunny climate, read the shipped UK papers (choice being of dubious quality in many enclaves around the world) and then have political sway on some issue affecting those in Liverpool or similar?
I also disagree with what an early post that seemed to suggest that the fate of ex Pats should affect the UK governments view on whether to be in the EU or not. Firstly as far as I am aware we are talking of a referendum but even if we put aside the mechanism of decision I dont think it is likely or appropriate that the fate of ex Pats is a major consideration on whether to stay or leave the EU.
Personally I would favour staying in the EU but I believe that if a referendum were to be held then the vote belongs to those who live in the UK - again we have to balance the understandable needs for an "escape route" for those who have made the wrong decision but for those who are happy living in France or elsewhere and continue to do so I say sorry its not your vote!
I am aiming to return to the UK one day, I will resume full political membership then but in the meantime I do not feel I have any political rights there other than the right to re-join the society from whence I came and then take a full role once more.
Jon
I confess to being in two minds about this.
1) I too am a staunch supporter of the EU ideal, but I agree it has not reached that 'ideal' yet, and this is where an EU Vote would appeal to me - literally on and about the EU. I accept that this seems to accept a Supra-state, but I don't see why that should affect regional culture differences, as these exist in various forms in the regions of individual countries anyway.
2) I have just taken steps to become a French National, and believe (hope?) this will not be too difficult as I am going the 'through marriage' status as did my wife when she got English and French Dual. I will keep you posted on this one!
My wife tells me her understanding is that the language requirement has been eased and not made more difficult. If they write it down I'm OK, but deafness does become a bit of a wotsit when people talk at me like express trains.
3) Britain is certainly a disruptive element, and I am not really qualified to judge why as like others I have little or no contact with the country now, having been out of it for over 50 years. So I don't think I have any voting rights there at all, and neither do I seek any, although again it would be nice perhaps to vote against leaving the EU.
4) I receive a small pension from the UK, and I really don't see why that should 'shrink or shrivel' because the UK leaves the EU, apart from the usual currency variations. That doesn't mean to say a particularly mean-spirited British Govt in the future might decide to slash it, as happened to my/our Australian pensions. Many pensioners living in non-EU countries receive their pensions, so why should it vary with those of us in France? If I get my French Nationality and this happens I should be able to get support from the French, who will be my Compatriots. The EU Charter says 'no citizen shall be left without resources' whatever that means.
However, and again like others this country is my country of choice for umpteen reasons, and this is where I hope to finally fall off my twig. It is my home and I want to be a true part of it and not a lodger.
I find it depressing that UK citizens have this kind of action going on but not other nationalities. The minority led movement against the EU is very similar elsewhere; the Netherlands, Germany, Poland and Sweden being ones I have read about most recently. The minority little Englanders who are forcing public opinion with half truths and outright falsehoods depend on ignorance as their best weapon. People living out of the UK have choice, beyond a vote against continued EU membership it is as yet speculation as to whether or not anybody would be hung out to dry. Swiss and Norwegians are not so why should UK citizens be? That is alarmist language. How do I know? My wife and children have Swiss nationality (although the children are dual) which is what they go under here. Switzerland is, at least, within the Schengen Agreement. However, they have no EU rights in principle but in practice receive all, with exception of communal and EU electoral rights. So, to simply say all UK citizens will be 'foreigners' is jumping the gun. First there must be a referendum, if a majority want to leave the EU then there would also be a transitional period. During that period agreements would be reached. If the UK government is in the business of dumping nationals then that will become apparent then, it will happen in whatever way the government of the time sees fit. We already know that the UK is quite capable of dumping its own people given the track record of the end of the colonial period, so what is different now? If people have unrealistic expectations of some kind of repatriation in the event then it is probably pure naivety.
Of course many things would be lost in the event of leaving the EU, but that is agreed by treaty. Leave a treaty, leave what is on offer. Bear in mind that there are enough people, from the UK especially, living in European countries who are decrying the EU as a socialist even communist super state. That is absolute tosh from people who are afraid of the bogeymen created years ago that brands anything that is not greed driven capitalism as being a left wing plot. If those people are so anti-EU then why are they not back in the UK? As for the rest, well they must decide either way.
Why should those of us whose nationality is probably the only association we have with the UK be at all interested in the fate of many of those people? I raise it simply as a question not as my own position. I know that Andrew Hearne and I would wish to see a federal Europe and both of us have often expressed internationalist views rather than simply stopping at being 'Europeans'. However, if being a European is all that is ever on offer it is accepted and there I see Simon Oliver and Tracey Thurling are much of the same opinion. I think it a case of none of us having something to go back to, so it is not indifference but simply what we see before us. Presenting a glib, negative picture of/for the younger people is equally assumptive and negates all that many of them may well have built up that will not allow what you predict to happen. Painting a negative picture is tantamount to scaremongering rather than encouraging. Whoever wishes to have an opinion will undoubtedly express it and does not need to be worried into doing so. It is the right, for right or wrong, of any individual to have an 'I'm all right' attitude and to criticise that is a very badly thought out way of losing their support. Finally, there are some details totally incorrect. Citizenship describes a state of being in possession of full rights, usually economic, social and political rights. To acquire those rights means achieving the age of legal majority in all democratic nations. If there was such as thing as European citizenship, which there is not, then the same would apply however unless majority ceased to be necessary then all people below age 18 would be excluded and those without full citizenship would include those in UK prisons without political rights. I think you mean nationality which is what we are born with and would always remain but can, in principle, be layered such as being Welsh, UK and European synonymously.
I agree with main principle of Brian C. - A united Europe, a very loose term, as united a bunch - albeit in some ways disparate – is a far more stable arrangement than “each man for himself” as uncomfortable in personal terms it may be for some, I believe is preferable.
Those who choose to live in which ever country they wish should be able to, if they so wish, moreover they should be able to have a say in the future (or present if necessary) of there "home" country. Those who opt to change nationality or just plain have nothing to do with their mother country remain free to do so. That I suggest is the right given by a democratic society. It may be worth remembering the many who found themselves stateless after a particular conflict and had no say in any country, all because one “country” wished to be bigger and better than others.
I would disagree with the basic premise that democracy is the glue that holds Europe together. If you define democracy by the chance of voting once every few years for one set of self-seeking liars or another then this may be a correct analysis.
However no UK citizen was ever asked directly if they wished to become part of a superstate which keeps expanding. The only question ever asked directly was one relating to a common market comprising at the time of 6 member states.
I rather suspect that no other member state asked its citizens a clear and direct question either.
The sooner the whole corrupt gravy train for politicians collapses the better.
Although I no longer live in France I moved there before the UK joined the then Common Market and there were no major problems with the French Administration. If the UK leaves the EU then I doubt there will be any serious issues for the ex-pat community.
I reply in a general manner - I am entirely in agreement with Elaine. This touches on the evolution of the structures of the EU. But to influence any changes we need a political voice.
I started this discussion and wish hopefully to end my contribution with the following remarks.
It would seem that the greater number of visitors to SFN are well integrated into French systems. Please spare a thought for others.
If the UK pulls out of the EU then:-
56900 British State Pensioners in France could be hung out to shrivel. At the worst they would have frozen pensions; no health support. A large number have little internet experience and probably are ignorant of the political forces at work or of SFN.
Many younger British Citizens who moved to France to set up a business or take employment on the bottom rung, will not have enough funds to warrant a residence permit. and also will not have health support.
All British Citizens will be considered ‘foreigners’ in France.
Their voice should be heard in the debate in Britain and in Parliament on the EU in/out issue (and of course on the future direction of European Institutions both social and political.)
We should all consider our fellow Citizens, our neighbours. The British Government should weigh the possible impact on all Citizens should withdrawal from the EU be considered.. It is because we are European Citizens that we Britons have a right to live in France. If that citizenship is removed the rights of Free movement of Money, Goods, Services and People for the British Citizen in Europe will be taken away.
The impression that is given of ‘I’m all right’ is not helpful to our fellow citizens.
I agree with Brian. I was born in the UK, rarely lived there, spent most of my life in Germany and France and have no intention of ever living in the UK. I'd like to be able to vote in the country where I pay taxes. Even better would be a European citizenship which entailed paying European taxes ... but that may be after our time.
;-)
I'll save that one for their 20th birthdays then, if they want one that is !
My parents are long gone and no paperwork kept by anybody. Nobody would know exactly where they were born and I am darned if I am willing to go to Elgin or wherever to do a manual search. The Swiss are as bad as the French on that one. I have my birth certificate, but would love to say I appeared out of the blue ;-D
And oh my goodness does that cost! We took
it's the depth of the paperwork, or the lengths they go to... copies of parents' birth certificates!!! I'm the one involved, not my parents!!!!! (and I'm not sure where they were born so going behind their backs to get copies may be a little difficult :-O
mine already have it from birth ;-) so thank god there's no paperwork to do - that'll be when they want UK passports!
Lobotomy, required for handling the paperwork ;-)