I have just by chance comes across this website
http://www.dontmovetofrance.co.uk/index.html
It has some very interesting and very diverse pros and cons from the author and others who have agreed or disagreed with him or those who have taken up their beds so to speak and moved across the channel. I believe it is worthy of a read by anyone contemplating moving to France who may discover some things about themselves that they really hadn't realised were more important to their lifestyle.
I think that you will need to take expert advice! Firstly if it is your principal house then I think you will be OK. If it is not then my guess is that if occupation of the property would have been possible in 1991 (even if it was horrible, or leaky, or ugly) then that date would apply, even if the bills are later. I'm pretty sure that all bona fide bills are allowable for deduction after the date of acquisition. After all you couldn't spend the money on it before you bought it could you?
This is useful:
http://www.french-property.com/guides/france/finance-taxation/taxation/capital-gains-tax/
The guidance states that appointment of a tax representative for sales over a certain value being a requirement
The most worrying aspect for French tax residents who still own a former home in the UK and then rent it out and sell it is that the French authorities seem to regard it as their right to tax the profits that may have accrued. Given acceleration of southern UK property values the tax liability in France could become massive. Increases in value are not so common in France (could easily be losses for some) so you need to tread warily. It will become even more complex if the UK leaves the EU and don't look to the UK politicians to take up cudgels on behalf of expats- they are not interested and not frightened of admitting their lack of interest as the majority of expats don't vote even if they still retain voting rights for 15 years. Taxation without representation exists in Europe.
Thanks David, useful information.
I was wondering....
We purchased our half acre of France in 1991 for £4000. We eventually completed the building in 1999, having spent £90000 on the project. It is now worth circa £250,000. Would we be assessed for tax purposes on the overall gain from the 1991 purchase of the land (minus the building costs) or from 1999 when the building was completed?
We have no intention to sell, but would be interested to know if we do not now have a tax liability in France (1991 land bought until 2014 = 23 years) or will have to wait another 7 years before we are free of tax liability? (1999 building completed and occupied until 2021 = 22 years)
Cheers
Paul
There already is no freedom of movement in the EU for my family. I am British, my daughter is British, but if we want to go to the UK even for a day my wife has to apply for a visa in Paris, including an interview, supply of countless documents etc which last time cost us about £800 inc travel and a night in a (cheap) Paris Hotel. We can travel freely elsewhere in the EU which is what we do and visits to the UK are off!
Yes Glen.
Paul in fact the situation is not as you state. If your French house is your maison principale a sale is dealt with quite separately to a maison secondaire. The relevant period after which profits would not be taxed is now I believe 22 years but it was going to be 30 years. The French politicians with second homes (many here in Brittany) did their own calculations. You can set off expenditure but you will need proof so you need invoices and I know that keeping papers for 22 years seems quite onerous but that is the law. DIY labour does not count, but materials do if you have invoices. If you had work done by unregulated labour tant pis. I still have a secondary home here in France but I did use it briefly as my main residence and it's currently let but as I've had it 43 years it will be exempt. My main house I have had longer; I paid very little for the property then spent at least 4 times the purchase price on renovation but it's exempt anyway. I agree that you need to take the long term and use the place and enjoy it not just as a speculation. Many Brits here in Brittany paid too much then spent too much doing places up and are looking down the barrel of losses if they sell anyway. Some losses may be at least 25%. There is no tax set off for a loss - naturally! The main moral of this tale is sin in haste and repent at leisure. Keep all bills. I don't know if they accept scanned versions or not. If you are about to buy maybe consider setting up a Societe Civile Immobiliere.
I have owned property in France for 27 years now, the first was bought for £8k in 1987, (spent £18K on renovation) and sold for £65k in 2003. Our current property was built from scratch, and is worth a lot more than the original building costs etc. But, the taxman in France has an interest in any equity.
I have always believed that houses in France are for living in, not as in the UK for making a huge profit out of. The tax rules regarding the equity on your house in France are a big disincentive to property developers and those seeking to make money out of their 'investment'.
You now need to hold on to/live in your french home for 30 years to avoid the property equity tax (or whatever it's called in France) although it is scaled down over the years.
We would never give up a foothold in UK to live abroad, just in case.....
The stand alone ex-aoC. No, not inspiring. I'll stick to competent doctors and stay here.
Or maybe putting your future into the care of Carey!
Only if you are intending to give up the ghost quickly :-(
This 77 year old foreigner has nothing but praise and profound gratitude for the French health service.
Within two months of first reporting a lump on the side of my face, I have had a parotid gland with a malignant tumor removed, had a follow-up PET scan and have just been informed that there is no further evidence of cancer in my body.
Will I choose to spend my final years back in the UK, under the care of the NHS? What do you think?
In defence of not moving back to uk.
I will say that when you no longer have the confidence in the medical
system or the policing of a country you have to look in a
different direction for stability.
I have bad, bad memories of NHS negligence.
Nothing can wipe these feelings from my mind and I know
that there are so many cases causing misery to families.
Getting it right some of the time is just good enough.
My wife and I play "spot the Brit". You get more points the further they are away!
My wife is Mauritian, and quite often in France and especially UK, if we see someone who we think is Mauritian but not quite sure, we walk near to them and ask each other, in Creole " There's a strong smell of Mulligatawny soup", and if they turn around quickly, we know!
Years ago I had a German colleague whose English was perfect except that he never got the hang of 'th'. People use to provoke him to say anything whatsoever about the thought process hoping he would reply 'I'm sinking' to everybody's amusement. One might say that the same sometimes applies here: people are thinking but occasionally it seems like they are sinking. What they sink (or think) into is another story entirely. Enjoy the apéro!
I think the people who ask questions like that are probably typical monoglots who can't imagine speaking another language and think that, were they to do so, their original language would be displaced, or something. So not very clever, really.
I spent my childhood being asked to speak or rather say something in my other languages by people who didn't speak them - I never saw the point, seeing they wouldn't understand & said so - but they always insisted, so like a good little circus pony I went ahead. It still happens now, from time to time, and does to my children as well. Sigh.
I wish people would realise that the majority of people in the world are actually polyglot and that being 'bad at languages' is nonsense, and I wish that people would just get on with it and learn to speak whatever languages people speak where they have chosen to live and not moan.
And I wish English-speaking tourists here wouldn't just shout at me in English not knowing or caring whether I understand or not, but just assuming I SHOULD speak English.
Here endeth the rant.
ps I'm not lumping in people like the poor old man I met in Inter on Wednesday who looked totally lost & when I asked if he needed help (in French) said embarrassedly that er, no, English, (he was from the US) asked if the Nutella he was clutching was peanut butter. So I felt sorry for him & my children helped him with the rest of his shopping.
I love what you had to say. I'm sorry about your wife, but glad you can't complain about the healthcare system you experienced.
Your daughter sounds great too. Sounds like the very best of ways to grow up and now the world is her oyster. Good for you, good for her!
You're going back to the UK for the same reasons,(well 2 of them) that I want to move to France for. I would be alone in the US, (my native land), for my siblings are much older, I have no children and no relatives, and all of my French husbands large family is in France. We all get on very well, plus I have a good (Fr) friend in France. We met when we were neighbors in L.A. So when one of us dies, we would virtually be alone here.
Also there is the healthcare issue. In the US to be covered is practically non existent. You either have to be very wealthy to afford proper care, or indigent. Don't believe the hype that is Obama-care. Nothing against the man, but the system, (or lack thereof), is flawed at the very core. I won't bore you with a rant. Suffice it to say that for us to get proper care we will get French coverage even while living here. Oops, guess I included my other reason for wanting to live in France.
So true Michael. I live in a land of immigrants, L.A. I just hate it when foreigners complain about this 'host country'! I don't even complain and I'm a native. Oh don't get me wrong, there are plenty of things I don't like about my country, but they are things that [I] don't like. This is not gospel, just my opinion and I save it for a fortunate few, and I try to be delicate/polite about it. For my personality I prefer the way of life in Europe. I lived in Italy for almost 3 years, and integrated myself so fully into the Italian way of life and mindset that I had a bit of a rough go of it when returning to my native land. I never complained about Italian life, or their ways, even to this day. It is simply different.
I am married to a wonderful French man now, (been together over 10 years), and I am trying to appeal to him to return to France. I have been looking, (for years on SFN, and other sources), for the 'down side' to living there. All of his family is there. Parents, siblings, nephews, nieces, aunts, uncles, cousins......Of course I will miss SOME things that are perhaps CONVENIENT and EFFICIENT here. A positive about L.A. is that the weather in here is temperate, (albeit boring). Our people, (and hopefully future), is in the south, Montélimar area. The weather isn't that bad, (hot summers and cold winters).
As far as my family here, I have very little so we'll just have to settle for visits to each other's lands, and SKYPE, (with 1 sister in L.A, and her son in Hawaii).
I figure by the time we get to France, there will only be a few more years we could work, (the day-to-day grind thing). We're middle aged, but not ready for retirement yet. Also we have tech-savvy nieces and nephews who are very helpful for all the bureaucracy that is part of the French way of doing things.
How are rentals in the south? I don't want to live indefinitely with my in-laws as wonderful as they are. I don't want to buy until we suss out a few things. I started a discussion about rental vs. buying a couple of hours ago. Or as the French say, 'a large hour ago' LOL
How stupid they are then. When I price something, (I'm a business owner selling products and services), I must do the research and figure supply and demand. This is economics 101! Tell them, "Don't take my word for it, do your own research". That's what I say to 99% of people I'm trying to make a point to. Then I can just shut my mouth and let the chips fall where they may. I'm no longer in my youth and have not the time nor inclination to talk to brick walls. As for the house thing, aren't we all suppose to look at the comps in the area to get an idea of what things should cost, be us buyers OR sellers?
Well done David, when she said 'poor', I was perplexed. Thank you for shooting us the figures, love it! I've often thought her a looney bird. Sorry if that sounds a bit cheeky.
And yes the NHS IS IN REAl crisis.
Tell me everyone what can be more important than good health care?
Money?
Without reasonable health you can not think about making a living.
I promise you I have been there....a nightmare>