Estate agent terminolgy - Is this a push-me/pull-you?

The agent has this on the listing: “Honoraires partagés : le prix indiqué comprend les honoraires à la charge de l’acheteur : 4,00% TTC du prix du bien hors honoraires

My translation is “Fees shared: the price shown includes the fees payable by the buyer: 4% All taxes included in the price of the property excluding fees” My bold italics.

The word " honoraires" must mean something different in the two occurences - “Honoraires partagés” and “hors honoraires” - otherwise it reads as a contradiction.

"“Honoraires partagés” must refer to the agent’s fees, split between buyer/seller and included of the price of the property. What are the "“Honoraires” that are excluded? Especially as “TTC”

Last Buy/Sell I was at… the Buyer paid Estate Agent fees and his Notaire’s Fees.

Another one saw the Seller paying the EAgent fees…Expert Report fees and Notaire fees…

Obviously something to look into and be sure to understand before proceeding.

OK so if a property is advertised at 104,000.
That is the price the seller pays, and it’s composed of 100,000 purchase price, + 4,000 which is 4% of the purchase price (is it? Give or take a zero, maths isn’t my strong point). The 104,000 includes the VAT payable on the fees.
I think.
Is that what I said before?

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I am aware that French estate agents slice the cake many different ways.

"Obviously something to look into and be sure to understand before proceeding." - which is precisely why I asked for an interpretation of this agent’s particular spiel.

Thanks Anna. You have got me most of the way there. I’m still slightly foxed by the … Eh! You’ve been and gone!

I was going to say - foxed by the 'What are the "“Honoraires” that are excluded? Especially as “TTC” ’ bit.

Ah but I came back!

Ummm … yes it is. And your maths are sound, up to this point.

You did! This is like a Brian Rix farce, expect, being on line, we don’t see your trousers falling down as you hide behind the curtains …

So the seller gets 100,000 off the buyer, the immo gets 4,000 off the buyer, and the notaire gets his 8% (or whatever they charge in disbursements and all the rest of it) off the buyer.

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Yeeees. Slowly now - we don’t want to let the meaning escape just as we nail it …

What are the "Honoraires that are excluded… ? All taxes included [TTC] could refer to ‘Stamp Duty/Purchase Tax’ - it is a tax, after all, whereas the notaries bung are fees - ‘honorarities’ 'n that.

Or should we give ourselves a break, have a nice cup of tea and ask the agent to write a list of dues, using the asking price as the starter for 10?

My head is starting to throb but that may be because the thunderstorms we have been having here in Valencia for days have come back. I love the Spanish for a thunderstorm - 'una tormenta’.

The notaire charges his fees (which are mostly disbursements and taxes as you say, notaires don’t actually earn much on property sales) separately. AFAIK they are never included in the advertised price but they are always paid by the buyer.
The TTC here relates specifically to the 4% immo fee, ie 4% inc. VAT.

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sorry, let me explain…

What I was trying to emphasize is the need for the Buyer to be absolutely sure of the figures … not just taking what we say here on the forum… and assuming that will be IT… because I have seen the results of Brits thinking they had a good understanding of the Fees etc and a good relationship/understanding with the Agent… only to find out (too late) that they had NOT fully understood/appreciated what figures were involved.

This is simply advice to the world in general.

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Anna, thanks. I buy that.

So M.Immo could be getting 8% on this deal, if he’s sliced it 50/50 between buyer & seller… I saw an agent’s sign outside a property in Frome, Wilts " 1/2 % ". 1½ %, 1¾ % is not unusual in England and anything over 2½ % is taking the Michael.

Surely the greed of immos simply leads to sellers getting their prices knocked back? I shall certainly be bearing this in mind if I get to the point of an offer on my fave.

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Not really because it’s the norm.
You can pay lower immo fees by buying a property advertised by a notaire.
Or you can buy direct from the seller (I did this) and pay no immo fees at all.
If you choose to use an immo, there is a price.
It’s well known (fans of the Ladies Detective Agench will get that)

Anna, that was a very handy steer. Fill in the form [When were you born and why?] and out comes the full costing of the purchase, excluding immo banditry.

“Le total des frais représente 9% du prix d’acquisition dont 66% destinés au Trésor Public.”

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Yes, there is. I suppose the immo commission in France must be set off against what is clearly the significant - huuuge - difference in the price of property in UK.

In this case I didn’t set out to use an immo. It is on Leboncoin. It’s the fab property at a remarkably affordable price that has me all excited. But then the old “I’m not paying that!” kicks in … I do need a bit over to deal with the brown - chocolate brown - bathroom suite. And the pink other one.

Agents in France charge anywhere between about 2.5% to 8% with 5 to 6’% being fairly normal. Unless stated, agents fees are paid by the buyer.
Indeed all fees are paid by the buyer with the exception of the diagnostics and '(unusually) any specific report or survey relating to the property as required by law. A building survey is not the norm but again those fees would be paid by the buyer.

As far as notaires fees are concerned these are strictly controlled on a sliding scale according to the value of the property.

It is to be noted that it is a fallacy that buying through a notaire means that you do not pay agency fees. They also effectively operate as estate agents in their own right and will charge their own fees as set by themselves. The legal fees will be on top.

Since last year all agents, including notaires, are obliged to state the price of the property itself with their fees being stated independently. They can no longer ‘lose’ or masssge their fees into the sale price.

The best advice is to establish at the outset what percentage fee rate the agent or notaire is charging
to sell the property on behalf of the vendor. After that speak to a notaire to find out what exactly the conveyancing fees will be. Any lower offer accepted should reduce both the agency fees (calculated as a percentage) and the legal fees (calculated on a sliding scale).

In summary all fees with the exception of diagnostics are paid by the buyer unless alternate agreements are negotiated but there is no obvious advantage buying through a notaire. In fact buying through an agent can be advantageous because then you have two parties working for you to earn their commissions.

Of course the upside is that when you sell the property you only pay for the diagnostics. Remember the old maxim that you make your profit when you buy rather than when you sell so shop wisely.

Sadly, for the unwary and/or those with language difficulties - it could be a costly mistake to think that the Estate Agent is working for the Buyer. The Estate Agent wants the Sale to go through and some are not scrupulous in how they achieve that end. :upside_down_face:

It is no different in principle to the property market in the UK or in fact any other market. There are unscrupulous people in all walks of life and in line with the well accepted though sometimes arduous levels of regulation and paperwork in France the agents are strictly controlled.

As with buying anything in life the buyer must exercise due diligence. If you have questions you ask, if you do not understand you find out, if you do not speak sufficient French you hire a translator.

Of course the agent will ultimately want to earn a living but they have their reputation to consider as well as any legal case that could be brought against them for misrepresentation so to suggest that they are only driven by money is ridiculous. There are as many estate agents who take pride in their profession I am sure as there are in any walk of life.

Sadly, the anecdotes and advice I offer do come from personal experience and/or experience I have of helping others who have found themselves in the mire…

take it or leave it… no skin off my nose… :upside_down_face: :thinking: :hugs: