FATCA and we Yanks in Europe

General Discussion
#1

National taxation reduces itself to one key concept – that of purpose. Taxation of income has a purpose to support the exercise of government within the nation. That exertion results in a very large series of “service offerings” to the nation’s citizens.

I can think of no way any “service offering” benefit has been accrued to me as an American citizen living abroad permanently. Except the passport, which is (anyway) an international convention. As regards this particular “notion” of taxation substantiation, the US has provided nothing, if anything, to its foreign nationals abroad. With the sole but egregious exception of those of us who work for the US government in a distinctly foreign capacity and on foreign soil. For instance, on a military base/port.

Regardless of the incessant dialogue that gets Americans-Abroad nowhere about FATCA, I have come to the sad conclusion that our sole remit is to bring a case before a court here in Europe. If you know of a lawyer who practices EU-law please pass this message on to that person.

Perhaps we can get enough Yanks together in Europe to fight FATCA at the judiciary level? (Employing FATCA was never approved by the EU parliament.) And, maybe we can’t. The answer to that question is up to us …

PS: JC Fleming, a Law professor who teaches both in the US and Europe, has written on the subject. You can find his web-site here.

Key revelations from the Paradise Papers
#2

Aren’t you just supposed to love your home country and its President so much that you don’t begrudge them a single cent?
I’ve heard that the only way to escape US taxes is to renounce US nationality which I believe costs a fortune to do.

#3

I think you have to show at the embassy, hand in your passport, and thats pretty much it.
But I think you will get rid of your SSA, so if you can do without that income …

#4

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Well, there is, I think another way. And it is to confront the EU with the
fact that FATCA was imposed upon the EU by the EU Commission (which is an
unelected body). I’m not sure there was even a vote on the matter by
country heads.

FATCA is supposedly “reciprocal”. The Americans promised to report
nationals with seemingly illicit funds in American banks. But, my
information tells me that “reciprocity” was never mentioned in the bill
passed by Congress. In fact, FATCA was passed by the American legislative
bodies but not the EU parliament. (And I could be wrong about this - only someone familiar with such legislation could tell for sure.)

Treaties of this nature are not normally the sole preserve of the Executive
body of any nation or group of nations. Typically, Legislatures must have
their say in the matter.

Is FATCA legally executable given the present regulatory environment of the
EU? I’d like to have a lawyer’s opinion about whether it could be
challengeable …

#5

Don’t forget the check for $2,350.


N.B.: Effective September 12, 2014, the fee for the “Administrative Processing of Formal Renunciation of U. S Citizenship” is $2,350.00. It will be collected at the time of your appointment.

#6

Wow!
They do know to make a buck!

I didn’t know that, thanks Anna.

#7

I’m having trouble in understanding exactly what you regard as a problem in regards to FATCA. After all, it isn’t of itself a tax, but rather a means of ensuring that the correct taxes are in fact paid. The provisions of the Franco / American tax treaty are very effective at preventing double taxation of income so I really don’t see what the problem is. In fact, in some areas the Franco / American treaty is much more beneficial to Americans than most other nationals would reasonably expect, so no doubt you would not wish to be dispensing with it along with FATCA.
Surely, for those with nothing to hide, the principles behind FATCA pose no problem.

#8

{I’m having trouble in understanding exactly what you regard as a problem
in regards to FATCA. After all, it isn’t of itself a tax, but rather a
means of ensuring that the correct taxes are in fact paid. }
No country on earth EXCEPT THE US exacts taxation of its citizens
permanently resident abroad.

The notion of a country taxing internationally is inherently unfair and
therefore illicit, which is why none do it - except the US. National laws (including taxation) relate to the nation and within its boundaries. Exporting American law to its citizens abroad is illegal.

What is a point-of-law that needs to be underscored in a EU court …

#9

Actually that is not quite correct. As a UK citizen in receipt of a ‘Government Pension’ I always have to pay UK Income Tax on that income even though I am permanently resident in France. At least the American Gov’t allows you to keep voting in US elections to give you a say in how your tax dollars are spent, whereas as a Brit, I am about to loose my ability to vote in UK elections under the 15 year rule. No doubt you’ll fully understand the grievance caused by taxation without representation. :slight_smile:

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#10

I am not aware of UK tax regulations. I did think, however, that obtaining an “S1 document” (by British citizens living in France) from the UK government was necessary for France to in fact ask the UK to reimburse France for National Healthcare Services obtained by UK-citizens.

I suspect that this is also true of other EU countries. It is not the case with Americans in France. The US pays nothing for medical services obtained by US citizens abroad. (Unless they work for the US government.)

And yet, it submits to dual-taxation, all revenues of Americans abroad above the limit of $100K annually …

#11

Mmm… . surely if things are really that hard/unfair for Yanks in Europe…I suppose they will be considering returning to US…

But I do have an American friend with English wife…and he is definitely staying…(no matter what)… as he loves it here in France…

Also, I believe many Brits are going back to UK… .as they are no longer happy with life in France… for various reasons.

So… Brits and Yanks… some are happy with France and all that life here entails… and some are not and are packing their bags… :relaxed: that’s life :heart_eyes:

#12

We are about 660 thousand Americans living in Europe, according to this web-site here. With some 100K living in France.

Most live in Germany (324K), but that number is significantly US military personnel.

Any exact number is impossible to ascertain.

#13

How many of those Yanks are unhappy with their life in Europe ?.. I have not seen anything about it in the Press…:relaxed:

#14

From here: Now that it is clear the U.S. will not ‘reciprocate’ on FATCA, will ‘partner’ countries wise up?

Excerpt:

As I have warned for several years now, “partner” governments signing legally defective Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) intergovernmental agreements under promises from the U.S. Treasury Department that the U.S. would provide reciprocal information from domestic American institutions was at best a long shot, more likely just a deception.

Almost three years ago, in July 2013, Florida Congressman Bill Posey made it clear requests for legislative authority to provide “reciprocity” were dead on arrival.

Yet foreign governments have continued to deceive themselves – or their publics, or both – that American participation in a global GATCA, or intergovernmental automatic exchange of information, disclosure of corporate beneficial ownership, and a common reporting standards regime, probably under OECD auspices, were just around the corner.

Well, it is not. Period. Full stop.

So, the premise that Americans would “tell tale” on foreigners hiding their savings in the US is what it was. Just plain blarney …

#15

seems to me that America will do what it wants to do… with or without my permission… :relaxed:

why don’t you take out French Nationality…??? will that ease your financial pain… ???

#16

The American servicemen living in Germany live in a virtual America. They live around American communities, get paid in dollars, shop in American shops, snack in American food outlets, ski from American hotels with lessons from American ski instructors and live an American lifestyle. Those who do venture out into the local communities cannot be considered to be anything other than tourists.

#17

I agree with your comment. They live in an entirely self-contained world
very different from Americans who live permanently here. That applies to
American students as well who are not permanent.

FATCA applies to neither group.

And yet, they were accounted in the population-statistics so I felt obliged
to at least mention them.

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#18

Nobody is unhappy, except those who must pay for dual taxation. Like me, for instance.

Which means that if you (an American and due to FATCA) do not jump through all the loops required to open an account, you will find that banks will accept you as a client purely for passive banking services.

They will not open investment accounts for you, and in some cases they will even refuse to open an account unless you give them beforehand specifics regarding your banking activities, and particularly those of an investment nature. (Like buying/selling bonds, stocks, etc.)

Managing American named-accounts is simply too costly (as a result of FATCA) for the amount of money held on deposit in most such accounts. The super-rich know well enough where to go with their millions and they are treated properly.

I have this information from a friend who works at a very large French bank, and whom I contacted regarding this matter …

#19

More on the lack of reciprocity regarding FATCA, meaning we Americans permanently resident in Europe are not being treated like Europeans permanently resident in the US.

Are Problems Looming for FATCA and the “Reciprocal” IGA?

#20

Why should I do that, and lose my American nationality with which I was born?

Is that any way to treat a fellow citizen?

Methinks not …