Sorry Shirley, it was Sheila for something that is probably a few pages back. Tell you what, here's a sly virtual peck on the cheek in compensation ;-)
So you know when I apologised to Sheila? hmm..interesting...... and' Sure you were rude about people' and your comments didnt apply to about 98%...but you think its ok to make those comments? If I did that about Scottish folk...you would just ignore eh? I dont think so. You seem to think because of history and your politics you can be abusive about English people...well you know, its not ok. I wasnt rude about anyone and I think you have been quite unpleasant to me, nothing new but I get fed up with your constant mauling. You seem to think that you can keep telling me when its time to stop a thread...or time to finish this....or to keep telling me to read more. First, Im afraid you dont get to tell me when to stop a thread or when to stop disagreeing with you. I read a lot. I just dont keep chewing over history on every thread. I like to look forward and dont look back all the time. I will finish this now because I have a nursing job and its time to leave. Brian if you believe you do not try to be combative...I can only assume you do it without realising. Ask some people what they think.....if they think you come across as bullish sometimes...you may be surprised. Have a good day.
Yeah you two -outside! :)
Carol, you, whatever you say, started that chain of discussion and yes you did include Irish as British. It took you several steps before reaching Sheila's apology at that, Sure, I was rude about rude people, which 98% are not undoubtedly, but my point is that I feel much as Sheila about the imposition of what I am. In general terms, and you have seen this before, I am a thoroughly convinced European who would happily see far more political and economic union and a far more federal structure in which countries strongly retain their identity but are cohesive as a group, more like the states of the USA in fact. It is a good model for Europe.
Look back through the thread. I very deliberately avoided using UK, because politically England, Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland are still that. The only reference I was using was the geographical distinction British/British Isles. I did that deliberately, consciously and whilst being totally to the point I never once tried to be combattive. However, it is again a distraction Carol and best dropped. It is not what Holly was saying or this post is about and battles royal are for other places.
Ok Brian..now read your comments about Australia...and the fact its all Englands fault....what do you want exactly? everyone who is English walking around on their knees in apologetic supplication....? I have a very good awareness of what has happened in the past, certainly Englands past.....at what stage do you stop hating exactly? should all the Jews forever hate the Arabs and Germans? shall we keep this up for ever? is it helpful? does it make you feel better? does it improve the future for kids to walk around having been indoctrinated with what nationalities have caused their 'tribe' death and destruction in the past? I think I would rather have my attitude, which is we are all people, some of us are good people, kind people and help others...then you have people who are not....some cruel, some bitter, some twisted.....now tell me, which type is likely to make a better future for children?
Didnt drive you anywhere Brian...my comment included Wales, Scotland and Ireland....there was no derogatory comment about any of those countries.....your comments were way more derogatory.....I just included them as part of the UK....obviously I missed out one word...'Northern' in front of Ireland...which I apologised to Sheila for. But I was not rude about any of those places..whereas you pretty much said what you thought of certain types of English people, which was rude. Brian you also made comments about not thinking Scotland etc were in fact part of the UK....well sorry, I dont make the rules....maybe I will start sulking about being Jewish and being picked on....
Finn nothing xenophobic about claiming and holding a component of identity as our American friends have every right to do. I think Sheila and I were both trying to correct what we were being told we are, no more than that. As for my disdain for the monarchy, aristocracy and old hegemony, well what else do you expect from a very 'left wing' socialist? Forgiveness is earned, I am fairly certain the Germans have earned it, not so sure about the French or English though. Neither appears to have forgiven the other and within themselves to this day they need to look at themselves. Nowhere is perfect.
But this is all a diversion from the original point that Holly made, Susan is contributing to and is extremely valid and should be addressed rather than the route Carol drove us down last night.
Any room for an American point of view here? Because of the large Irish population (should I say Southern Irish?) in the US I think that most of us are aware of the difference between Northern and Southern Ireland but we do say just Ireland or Irish because it's easier. My mother who is half Irish brought us kids up hating the English and there is something in my blood that still curdles when I think about Northern Ireland. Reading Swift's "Modest Proposal" didn't help. I'm an adult now and why should I care any more about Ireland then I care about Israel and Palestine? Is there such a thing as genetic hate???? It's silly and something that bothers me as far as my identity goes. I am also English. My English ancestors left England in the 1600's because of the religious persecution of Anabaptists. In America they were chased once again and finally settled in Gravesend NY. This same line of my family came from Scotland before moving to England. Why am I thinking about all this? I'm American but never the less I find all this bickering fascinating. PS If I've stepped on somebody's toes please excuse me in advance.
Thank you Sheila, I went to bed but you made my point.
PS to Carol, on the point about native Australians, in fact it was (eeer-hemmm) the English and Dutch settlers there who stared that ball rolling and since independence from England a few decades ago their situation has begun to improve. South Africa, well hello again English and Dutch, forgetting the Boer War, neither really considered the Bantus to be real human beings. Get reading Carol, catch up and find out why some of us (not just me) take history seriously. It is part of why a couple of million Scots will say not British because that is associated worldwide with being English, as for the rest of the Scots, up to them entirely. I occupy the same ground as Sheila without having escaped the cruel grasp of London.
I agree. I see no reason why taxes should be paid by people with no rights to vote.....maybe that should be used as a bargaining point...you want our taxes? give us a vote then.... I am now a UK citizen, with a vote, and paying my UK taxes. At the moment I think a lot of us are asking if the EU has a future....or at least does the Euro....what a mess.
Far as I am concerned....have no problems with independence for any/everyone.....even Cornwall was asking for it a while ago.....if a country has the ability to be independent financially and have no dependence on any other country...then I see no reason for with holding independence....but often it boils down to not having sufficient finances to do that.....
I guess I wasn't born with a sensitive gene.....non of us has control over where or when we are born...our struggles are not always our own...and like you....I dont know if looking back is always that helpful....
Ive made my apologies Finn.....the problem for me is that as an English person.....I dont really think in terms of Scotland, Northern Ireland (see....I am being careful here....) Wales being downtrodden parts of England... my mistake. It is, I acknowledge...sensitive....more so for those non English. Most of my English friends dont think of the UK as being ruled by England...but just a conglomeration of countries...much like Europe. I am not fussed about nationality....obviously others are......each to our own eh?
and people wonder why wars happen....
Sigh. There's a real sense of obfuscation here. What exactly is your point? I have clearly stated that you should not include Ireland/Eire/Republic of Ireland in any broad statement that clearly refers to those who claim British nationality. You have clearly stated that you couldn't give a damn. I have said "I will leave it at that" and that you have made Holly's point for her. I speak from an Irish point of view. Those who hail from the entity known as Northern Ireland can speak for themselves. That's it from me. Goodnight.
Do people say 'I met a really nice Northern Irish girl" or 'I met a really nice Southern Irish girl'? most people say Irish...I am sorry that offends you....I would be delighted for Ireland to be one independent country....not my call....if all Ireland want that why doesnt it happen?
Indeed, Carol, I did not for one minute suggest that you had any control over who is considered what, except when that comes to you Carol. I pointed out that you were including the Irish in a statement that encompassed the UK. As you claim to have Irish ancestry and appear to be an educated and articulate lady, you should have known better. And therefore, you should have been sensitive enough to the Irish situation not to suggest for one minute that Irish people are to be included in statements that are patently about the British/those from the UK/whatever. I will leave it at that, as you have clearly stated you couldn't give a damn - which makes Holly's point precisely - that the "Brits" forget there are others out there or here on SFN who are NOT Brits but are of a different nationality.
Frankly my dear....I couldn't give a damn...(what play is that from?)....Brian and Sheila...I didn't invent the UK or Britain...I have no control over who is considered what....and dont have any strong feelings either way, if every one of the countries you mention would like independence...I would grant them independence...(dont have that power...) but I dont care. I mean, I really do not care. I do not look at someone who is Scottish and think...I am English...therefore I own you...(do people think like that?) I think some people are a little...er...sensitive...fine, whatever rings their bell. Personally I am not willing to accept responsibility for all the sins of the English...and Brian...come on....fess up...every blinking post that talks about UK...you burst a blood vessel clarifying you are Scottish....and get upset about a suggestion of a taint from English blood. I do not have sensitivities in the area of nationality, as stated, good people are good people no matter where they hail from....Im not quite sure what the point of this conversation is....shall I start picking holes in someone who is Africaans because of the history of South Africa....? Have a go at some white Australians for their treatment of native Australians...? or the Americans for the treatment of native Americans...? But I will say, most people from around the world do not see a difference in Northern Ireland or Southern Ireland...they speak of 'Irish' people...they dont say...Northern Irish ....or Southern Irish....and many assume its all part of the UK....not my fault boss!
Carol, stop! I have absolutely nothing whatsoever against the English. My objection is purely that everybody who comes from England who assumes, as some do, that the rest of us 'belong' to them has got to learn to think again. I extend Shelia's point somewhat. There is no such thing as British/Brits. The British Isles are an archipelago of islands of which one is called Great Britain. That comprises of three countries. History is what made those countries as they are today and it simply underlines my point that I wish to see the country of my ancestry achieve what all but three counties of Ireland achieved in 1922. England may do as England does, but I am not party to denial of my identity because somebody says I am a Brit. I have no hopes here and the question was raised by somebody from the Anglophone USA who felt excluded. I often feel the same because I acknowledge my ancestry.
Historically England did in fact exclude people and dispose of them as it wished, for which the ruling classes including ancestors of the present monarchy who totally managed to ignore its aftermath in things like apartheid indulged themselves and much of the wealth many of the establish old ruling class have today was reaped from. For the ordinary people I have every sympathy, for the English ruling classes absolutely none for several hundred years of inhumanity.
So not Carol, as you concede when corrected, the Irish are not Brits, nor are the Scots. We are Scots of whom roughly 85% live on the island called Great Britain, the rest on the Inner and Outer Hebrides, Shetlands and Orkneys which are clearly Scottish not British following geographical reasoning.
Not at all Carol, no more than I would any one of my friends who were born in the UK or who consider themselves British. But insofar as nationality matters, the right to be known as Irish (and not included in a broad sweeping statement which includes those countries comprised within the terms "British" or "UK") was a hard fought and bitter battle.
I think of people from Ireland...whether North or South Irish....not British. I would be happy for the Island of Ireland to be one country...and no part of the UK....if that is what the people that live there think. Do you really expect me to take responsibility for the history of the UK and Ireland?