Very well said Holly, you've just said what I often think when reading the discussions within the groups that I am part of...it seems to be more about the brits and theirs woes without even a blink about those of us who have to work & struggle very hard to even live here in France...ie : we must test for our driver's license...from the beginning not just a transfer if we feel like it! and let's not get started on carte de sejour renewals...I often just discard a discussion due to the content being about the simple decision to go or stay in an instant! thanks for speaking up!
Holly...welcome...a lovely piece. I can appreciate your comments...what is it that is said about the Brits and Americans...countries divided by the same language...or am I misquoting??? Anyway, I am married to a guy that was born and spent his early life in Canada...he is the greatest Anglophile you could imagine. When we moved to France, we learnt to appreciate the USA way more than we ever had previously...in the shape of MacDonalds! having been let down right, left and centre by France Telecom (no phone, no broadband and having waited from August to February) we discovered MacDonalds! always open bang on 9am ( a lot of French businesses keep laid back time...so if it said 9...it could equally be 9.15 or 9.30 (this is totally accurate for France Telecom in Perpignan before anyone complains!) Always a smile, we bought coffee every day then spent an hour and their electricity, because they let us plug our computer into their mains. This went on for nearly 2 months...we had one hour a day of doing our emails etc...even buying our house and transferring nearly 500k euros over an unprotected line!
At some point I realised I loved the way Americans worked. There is a work ethic...the customer gets a smile and a 'have a nice day'...the Americans run businesses for the benefit of the customers...which in turn makes sure they turn a good profit. Within a year of moving to France...I was heard to say to my husband..why didnt we move to the US instead?
I am delighted every time I meet another person speaking English, whether it has an American, Australian, New Zealand, African or Indian accent....I guess I love the language and it always made me feel more at home. So.........I hope you do feel at home with SFN. Dont feel alienated....sometimes you will read things like those you mention above...where being a Brit is all important. We are all in Europe...so its a little like a club....but please dont assume that means the Brits are valued more...because I dont for a minute think that is the case.
Are we all getting a head start on the Friday evening brawl??? Now I have to open a beer!
When I joined SFN a few months back, I was desperate for contact with english speaking people living in or going to France regularly. I never once in my head segregated the British, English, Irish, Welsh, Scots, American, Australian, NZ etc etc - everyone on here, typing in English in my desperate head, was simply not French native.
I have since learned there are french natives, half-french, qtr-french on here, as there is almost every other nationality - in my eyes, we simply communicate through the medium of the english written language.
Words are not enough to communicate, everyone reads something different from our words, always using their own terms of reference. So for that reason, I value everyone's input, where they are in their own heads, and learn from them. I have my own terms of reference, my own opinions, and do not believe in argument, but clean debate.
Also, I believe even facts can be delivered in a way to suit the writer, so I read with interest and try to have an open mind.
Holly, welcome to SFN, and I salute you and your contributions. Meanwhile, thanks to all here (on the site in general) for keeping the conversation alive and kicking :) Cheers, from an Irish girl drinking a German beer ;-)
Celeste!
I'm very glad that your daughter and son-in-law made it through the storm okay. There are so many others that didn't. My heart goes out to them.
You definitely have an adventure in your future. New Jersey to California is a long drive! Please promise to rest often and get out to stretch your legs (I'm sure the dogs will remind you). Maybe if you have some time, you'll be able to drive by some of the landmarks. I wish you luck!
You have all given me food for thought. Thank you. I will no longer take it personally when I hear about the “Brits” all around me! ;-) You know, the United States is a huge area, but it feels so much smaller when everyone speaks your language. I used to feel like Dorothy from the Wizard of Oz. I wanted to see what was over the rainbow. I did and it IS beautiful. I have no wish to go back and never wish for “what I can't find in my own backyard”, but France could be as big as Africa when it comes to finding people who “get” the language and can understand where I'm coming from. I'm glad that I posted (initially I was afraid, thought I'd get hammered with animosity for some reason) and found that this IS an arena where I can share my thoughts and not get judged. I may not be able to see you face to face, but it seems that I've found my hangout. Heck, I gotta see what Alexander instigates!
You just made me think! Doh! When I was teaching undergraduates and had the 'British thing' time and time again was with well-heeled public school (Holly et all, that means 'expensive private school') male. Time and time again one would hear; "But Dr Milne, Wales, Scotland and Ireland are all part of England...". It seemed as if 1922 meant nothing to them to begin with, so got that little lecture started with Irish partition. Many of them were absolutely indoctrinated with such ideas as the area of the British Commonwealth is still far larger than any other nation state in the world, entirely ignoring the fact that 90% plus of the countries had become independent a decade or three earlier. There were examples like the square mileage of Canada is far bigger than the USA. So what, much of it is a mainly frozen tundra that is not useful for much (OK, there is apparently lots of gas and so on underneath). As recently as the 1990s certainly some of the top boy's schools propagandised the importance of being English. The girl's schools appeared to be less inclined, preferring cookery classes to the history of empire. There is a list of things that are of the grade 'red rag to a bull' to social anthropologists that include: ethnicity, race, nationality, citizenship, origins and migration.
Some of us having worked, as I did, in South America are cautious about calling people 'Americans' since in the contemporary world that is claimed all the way from Tierra del Fuego up to almost the North Pole. So I prefer to say USA or US and not get myself ticked off. Whatever, we have all been part of huge population upheavals over the last 4000 years or so and the last few hundred years have given us particular points of reference. They do not make us different under our skin, where the the superficiality of pigmentation ends as well. Thus I call myself, proudly, an internationalist and have (even on SFN) been criticised for claiming that right to an identity without borders. I do not give a damn where people come from. If they are good people then great, I'll get on with them, have them as friends or just co-exist peacefully. If they are absolutely fanatic nutcases who want to tell us it is all wrong, they have no chance of me being a friend. As simple as that. So Holly, let us allocate the role of referee to Alexander and let the Friday evening brawl begin...
You the ref?
See how confusing it is. Celeste comes from Ireland, one of the British Isles, which actually makes her regionally British, but that has nothing to do with the bigger island. That is Great Britain made up of three countries. Before I moved here I lived five years in Wales. There is a Welsh language Cymru that more people still speak in Argentina than in Wales at this point in time. That is because Welsh miners went there to work in the 19th century before the English managed to more and more suppress Cymru. Many Welsh people I got to know, especially Welsh language speakers do not call themselves British either. Then my folk in Scotland, that has always been a mixed bunch anyway. However my family originate from less than a one hour drive from where Donald Trump has raped part of the NE coast. In that part of the world the people have been very diasporic, so dispersed into England a bit but large numbers in Nova Scotia, Ontario and parts of real greenback USA. Somehow or other, when a large number of them were dispossessed of their land in and around the village of Dallas, the name travelled with them and somehow it sprang up again in Texas. One of the dominant families in Scotland that for a large part had to get out of the country before the English hunted them down and transported them to the 'colonies' is now better know for terrible hamburgers and coffee that is a crime against humanity. Anyway, by saying British I would be untrue to myself because I am one of the people who is pro-indepence for Scotland and membership of the EU after UK. As for the British culture Celeste mentions, I ain't found it yet folk and I've been on this planet over six decades. No such thing. Some people may try to persuade you otherwise, smile one of those indulgent smiles and forget their ramblings.
Not that I have anything against the English. It is simply that there are some English who have a bad habit of including the Celtic nations when they say England or 'us' and also historically Scotland certainly had a longer history aligned with France than since taken over by England. Indeed, the French law that gave Scots dual nationality was only rescinded in 1907 and at present an academic in Manchester, England is busy generating articles showing that the Auld Alliance is still valid. So, if that holds true, I am a Franco-Scot. Being married to an Italian-Swiss, they being a small minority in the south of Switzerland too, our children are melting pot.
When it comes down to brass tacks Holly, we are like the USA in many cases because we mingle. That is all the people who populated the Americas did albeit with injustices to the indigenous people (Russel Means died two weeks ago, I met him several times, his was a cause for justice on that account), enormous injustices to the Africans (mainly imported there by the English to begin with, until Wilberforce intervened anyway), Asians and enslaved/convicted Europeans, etc, transported there as a labour force with no human value and so on. Mingling has consequently sometimes taken a bit longer and it is an ongoing process but the blowing of trumpets by liberal Europeans is also very premature.
So, be proud of your culture and heritage. If you must shout then do it quietly, many of us will listen and actually there are quite a few of us who do not actually care where people come from - as I was saying to the SFN-er from Alpha Centuri the other day! Just join in and be one of 'us' whover/whatever we are.
I'm both American and Mexican, and I work at a language center where I am the only American among Brits. I love my colleagues, and the students' reaction is mixed, some say they think the American accent is harder/easier/uglier/nicer, but so far no necessarily terrible experience. But as far as making friends or meeting others from across the ocean, it's quite difficult. If you are ever near Rouen, let me know, I'm also (very often) lonely!
I have a download of the 94 East song 'Just Another Sucker' somewhere. That they guy you mean? ;-)
Alexander, I'll watch with you. Susan, since there seems to be so few of us, we'll have to shout (sorry Brian)! And, Tracy and Brian, thanks for your comments. I understand what you mean by the expat label. To me, it sounds as if I don't want to have anything to do with my country. I'm proud to be an American (I know that there is the good and the bad, but that's another topic), and I don't WANT to be 'lumped' into a category that sounds so negative with a whole bunch of others who are more than likely proud of their heritages and feel the same way as I do. I like the idea of an "internationalist", very nice. The whole without a label idea reminds me of the singer Prince who changed his name to a symbol instead. You Brits DO know who I'm talking about, I hope?? ;-)
Oui, toi!! and enjoy it while you can...
But Susan, don't SHOUT, some people might be disturbed during their siesta :-)
Holly!
You are not alone. I'm an American too. I know what you mean about SFN being mostly British. I guess that we need to make our voices heard.
Too much (French) wine did not enhance my typing, excuse me for some of those spellings like 'frogetting' that sounds extraordinarily French!!
Hi Holly, don't take Alexander one little bit seriously because I think he is ragging us all. But fair play. I defend the Scots corner all too often, especially when someones says in the Uk and then follows it with something very SE England. My wife is Swiss, my identity is confused because I have spent time here and there and heck it is easier living here in France and frogetting that all. It does not stop me putting on my kilt occasionally when people put on local costumes. I love this site because it does not censor or censure (except when things go over the top) and because of the exchanges. I think what you say goes for Dutch, German, Australian and whoever knows who else. Part of it is them, but then you just nudged an elbow in the way people should and all power to all of you who do. Like Tracy I do not like that expat label, especially because I am not especially a patriot the way that implies but consider myself an internationalist without a label. The Scots thing is my ancestry, not who I am and I wish people would not confuse these things.
So yes, great issues. I spent much of last night chatting with an old friend (my post is a few ahead of yours) as the US election progressed and as ever I thought how little we know about each other across the Atlantic and is it not time to end that divide. A good start Holly, great oak from little acorns, they say, but what a magnificent, sturdy oak it will be one day.
Alexander - will try my hardest :)
Great point Holly, those of us who have lived in France many years are quite guilty of talking about the 'Brits' as we are so used to the French lumping all of us together as 'les anglais'. One of my good friends is Scottish and his wife from New Zealand however, they are always referred to locally as 'les anglais' and we have to go to great pains to point out that, in fact, 'lui est ecosse et elle est de nouvelle zealand'.
Mind you, I get annoyed when people refer to me as an 'expat' - I feel I am an immigrant as an expat is someone that is here temporarily and after 20 years, I really feel that France is home, despite being married to an Englishman! And it will be 9 years tomorrow since we married (in France) :-)
I am sooo glad you posted this Holly because it raises some very good issues and also I was just about to post about the fact that I'm looking for someone who could help point me in the right direction concerning content that our American members would be interested in....
Interested? If so can you send me a pm and maybe we can talk? xx