Brian I can't agree with you that the English are sedentary. I'm American because of my English ancestors who didn't stay in place. We Americans have the image of the British having their tea in the middle of the desert or in other exotic places. The British have alway been great wanderers. Look at Africa and India and Narnia. There's a difference between people who travel for their work and people who have really made the move to live in a foreign country. When I first came to Toulouse I joined a group of Americans until I realized that their French experience was not at all the same as mine. They basically just imported their lifestyle here and had no motivation to learn to speak French or have French friends. They all worked for Thomson who took care of them as far as housing among other things. They were mostly loud and flashy and NO not all Americans are like that.
Not sure I agree Victoria. I actually think it is easier for people from the USA to up sticks and move to elsewhere. I have friends from the USA around the world, have worked with them far more than any other British people. I find that the the restrictions on US nationals in Europe now have changed what I knew around 40 years ago. The English particularly are sedentary whereas the Irish, Scots and Welsh have been, if I may put it this way, exported for some centuries and have the connections as a result. The English mainly stayed at home or spent a while abroad in the service of their country. However, there is no tradition of being great outmigrants.
Apart from that, the expression is 'English reserve', not something we Scots and our Irish brethren are known for. Awkwardness is a hallmark of a particular type of Englishness anyway, something of the past in many ways as young people have increasingly imitated their North American contemporaries.
Victoria, thank you. I understand that it is difficult for anyone to leave what is comfortable and familiar and take up residence in unknown territory. And it's true that most people will talk about themselves or others who are like them because that is what is familiar and comfortable. It's NOT what I was thinking of when I made that comment. At the time, I was thinking about MYSELF, obviously! And I guess maybe that's just it. I was so used to hearing about Americans for so long that it started to grate on me when I DIDN'T hear about them. Why weren't we special too? Something along those lines, perhaps.
It's been quite enlightening to read the different views and to see what course the conversation takes. Shirley mentioned how the French in her neck of the woods believe that the dialects are regional. I guess that is how many Americans who have not had a chance to venture beyond the borders (and have not taken the opportunity to learn a little more) think about the accents they hear: French accent, Paris; Spanish accent, Mexico and if not Mexico, Madrid or Barcelona; Irish accent, Dublin; Australian accent, whichever city Crocodile Dundee came from. Canadians always say 'ey?' and the Scottish where kilts every day. Misconceptions can be hard to overcome.
Holly, it's called life. The majority, unless pulled up, will always talk about themselves. It's quite difficult for Americans to move to France, it's comparitively easy for people from Great Britain, so most English speaking ex-pats are going to be from GB, when they start talking about the pros and cons of moving back they're going to be talking about themselves and their own concerns. It may be thoughtless to ignore others but it's natural and very common and done by everyone (most of the writer's sites I belong to are based in the States and you'd be forgiven sometimes for thinking that most of the members don't realise that it's possible not to be American!).
Some people are unfriendly, whatever their nationality, but don't forget that the old cliché about British reserve is based on truth, most Brits don't seem to have that instinctive openess that many Americans have, but it doesn't mean they're unwelcoming, just awkward. My mother used to tell me that most of the people I found unfriendly were probably just shy, I know tell my own children that because it's so true.
We discussed this, because it was on my mind, with dinner guests last night. Both speak English, although we did not, and are a bit more cosmopolitan than many other people. They are in their forties and were saying that people from roughly 55 upward are mentally sealed off from the rest of the world. However they saw exctly what you were saying about accents differently Shirly. The husband said that that is how it was until very recently, now the French have a bit of a crisis having allowed Occitaine back as an 'official' language in a few departmetments they find several more wanting the same privilege. Then there in the small Basque speaking population who still want independence but failing that autonomy along with their compatriots across the broder. Corsica still has a tiny Corsican speaking minority, UNESCO (based in Paris) has classified it a highly endangered language and the revival movement is riding on that. The Flemish and German speaking minorities want their languages as the first language in education and the 108 hours per curriculum year at primary level in their tongues.Sooner or later France must accept all of these as national languages, drop the insistence on French as a first language and teach sequentially with French taking the back seat. As he said, l'Academie is always saying the people must not do this and that and yet when he worked in the civil service in IT before changing career, they had been dependent on English because France is not really the place for computer advances. When they got the decree to use 'courrier electronique' in the form of courriel they all sighed and got on with le mail as before.
He is a teacher and thinks they are all right, also says that he knows he is privileged because his parents who both did exchanges to England in their turn when they were at school, then helped him learn. The wife who is first generation French born of Spanish origin is a language teacher. She began to learn English when she was about 16 and says it should have been 6, but already being bilingual she got another one on board far more easily than other people. Their children watched English language TV with ours, but then they do sometimes at home. The point made was that in families where people have learned languages there is a regime of children following that through and it is growing.
That is not a French bash, but quite the opposite in fact. They need to join the rest of the world, English is the most useful communication tool today and it does not mean everybody should be perfectly bilingual. Some people would benefit immensely. At the same time, learning to differentiate between the ways we differently say things in the English language would be an additional help. I remember an English speaking German friend who could not understand a New Zealander because of the accent and pronunciation (yiss instead of yes....) and at the same time I was making fun of the 'Kiwi' beacuse what she said seemed archaic sometimes.
Difference is fun. Let us not be critical but encourage it. I have bilingual children now, one is picking up two more at a rate of knots, they are our future. I would equally encourage the people who live in English speaking environments to begin to improve their language skills - as they say nothing is forever which the Romans, Mongols, Ottomans, etc would never have believed...
doh..! no chance to edit...should read but if I am wrong, I apologise...!
Dont think Sue is new....but I think she may have been 'fraped' by her partner...thus the wife comment. Sue probably not aware of the comment...but if I apologise if I am wrong.
There's an American musician from North Carolina lives down the road from me, with his Dutch wife, so you're not alone. They have a few French friends here, as well as Dutch, British, and one or two other Americans. We all seem to be accepted equally around here. He doesn't miss the States one iota (so he says).. And I have to say I don't miss the UK. In fact, thinking about, for this remote neck of the woods, there are quite a few Yanks about. So don't feel left out...
Chris
Have we offended Sue Piper? all quiet on the western front now?
I wonder why, Sue, you decided to comment and tell us about your origins, hence feeding the twaddle. You said that you are a citizen of the world. When it gets right down to it, I think that that's what everyone has been trying to tell me about this group. Everyone on here is a citizen of the world in his/her own right.
Why is it a lot of twaddle Sue, explain please? Most of us are happy with criticism if its constructive, which yours clearly isn't. I assume Sue that you and your wife are Gay? did you marry here or elsewhere?
There are some specific problems that people coming from outside of the UE have in France Mr. Sue Piper . That's not nationalist just the facts. Being American I have to have a carte de resident, and most of my papers don't mean a thing here. I had to go back to the US to get a signed copy of my birth certificate because the original was not accepted. I had to go through the French auto ecole (about 2000 euros) to get a drivers license and that 's after driving for 15 years in the U.S. The auto insurance company thinks of me as a new driver so I have to pay more. I'm not crying in my soup because I did make the decision to follow my French husband over here but it is not all rosey. If we Americans can help each other out some why is that a problem for you Mr. Sue Piper! I don't get it!
Doh! What a complete load of badly thought through nationalistic twaddle. Oh and in case you think this is an "english WASP" my roots polish dad, romany mother born in england have lived in Germany and now France . Citizen of the world and proud of it. (Mr Soope) Whilst my wife has irish roots, born in England, with Yugoslavian close relatives.
No Tracy, definitely not feeling left out now. It's so interesting to see how everyone thinks and feels and to find out the history of people too.
Does our nationality matter if we are like minded people? personally I dont really care about where someone is from....its how we communicate that matters...
I have belonged to other anglophone associations and felt left out because I was British, even if nearly half the membership was British, so I know how you feel. I'm British but with Scottish and Irish ancestry and my OH is French but with an English grandfather and a German Swiss great grandmother.
Well, I guess you're not feeling left out now Holly! Brought up some interesting thoughts didn't it. I do think of myself British but I forgot to mention that I am married to a half German, whose grandfather is Italian - as our kids were born in France what does that make them. Also, I only have one brother, who currently lives in Canada, he is married to a Canadian with 4 Canadian children - although one of them was born in France. Despite being 'British', I left there at the age of 23 and have never returned, I have never really lived there as an adult.
It seems that most of us on this site are 'internationalist' we have English as a common language but we also have an adventurous spirit and that is what we find in common here.
We have had holidays in the US and plan more...my next trip will be to Martha's Vineyard and Boston and all along the East coast. We have found holidays in the US are invariably successful due to the friendliness of folk. Be assured, from my point of view and many of my friends, Americans are cousins across the pond...so good to hear from you.
Carol, I know what you mean about being delighted when running in to people who speak English. I have to admit that when I go to the grocery store and hear it occasionally, I HAVE to pipe in and say SOMETHING just so they know that they are not alone! haha. I've eavesdropped and told an old couple where to find the potato chips, said bless you to some guy, told a woman her child was cute, ANYTHING to let them know that I too speak English! Is that sad? Hahaha. My husband laughs at me whenever he catches me doing it.
Thanks for the comments about Americans. When I went back over the summer after three years of being away, one of the things I noticed was how friendly "they" are. People said hello to us left and right, people commented on my then 3 month old son, everyone was very warm. One story, I have to tell. A man working at a grocery store was following me around the store. He comes up to me and says, "stay right there". All I could think was that he thought I had taken something and was going to get security or something. I stayed because I had nothing to hide. The man came back with a piece of paper that talked about being a wonderful mother. He looked at my son and said, "you can tell that you're one of those" as he pointed to the paper. It made my day!!
As far as McDonald's, I can tell you that back in upstate NY, when I was a teen, I used to work at McDonald's on the cash register. On the side, I had to drop fries and make sundaes. I used to come home smelling like hamburgers. It was a good time though. I'm glad that you have good memories of it too.
Just more Brits Natalie...but if you all chip in...then there will be a louder voice from outside the UK...point is we are all in Europe...so there is no hidden motive..just the fact we all belong to one big club...! but everyone is welcome...