You couldn’t imagine the relief when I saw the “Freedom of Movement” topic, I thought you were all criticising my new M&S baggie boxer shorts!
5 Likes
Hmmm, in fact I have realised that the above manages to compare apples & oranges so back to the drawing board.
However, I was trying to disprove my own hunch that Brits are less mobile. Failing to disprove myself I am left with my gut feeling that British workers, especially low skilled and semi-skilled trades are much less likely to take advantage of FoM than their A8 counterparts. Probably because we are so much worse at languages than our neighbours in the EU, plus - dare I say it, rather less enterprising than the national stereotype suggests - thus the UK does not derive as much benefit from FoM.
Not that this should be taken that I, personally1, think FoM is a bad thing - far from it. Nor is it the EU’s fault that we failed to impose restrictions when we could, nor that we continue to be more lax than regulations allow, nor that our workers fail to make good use of FoM - none of this is really their fault and while leaving will “fix” FoM unless we spend significant sums of money on home-grown talent (and all indications are that public money will be tighter post Brexit so that’s not likely to happen) we will simply replace Eu workers with non-EU workers.
In fact this can be seen in the ons figures from May - there were 28,000 fewer EU workers since the January figures but 20,000 more non-EU workers.
1] Pretty much I am exactly the sort of person who would benefit from FoM - and if I still worked in IT would be actively exploring my options. Unfortunately both my, and my wife’s job are essentially “UK only” so we’re stuck at present.
1 Like
A Free Market certainly relies on free movement / exchange of skilled labour - a good thing.
This is a separate issue surely to the free movement of ‘economic’ migrants and others who may not have the skills that are in demand to drive the market economy, rather than the demand on social services?
2 Likes
It is indeed - but note that the term “economic migrant” refers to those trying to enter from outside the EU. Those moving around within the EU are just EU citizens exercising their rights.
1 Like
Sorry about the delay in replying Paul. The restriction on the A8 nations wasn’t about economics - it was simply to allow EU nations to adjust their bureau procedures to cope. Only A2 nationals were resticted on economic grounds and only, effectively, for 12 months.
This summary from ILPA explains the legal position - “The key difference for A8 and A2 nationals, as compared to other EEA nationals, is that access to the UK labour market is restricted. However, the restrictions for A8 nationals are no more than a requirement that the A8 national register (as described in this information sheet). The restrictions for A2 nationals are more substantial. In either case, however, on completing 12 months continuous and lawful employment, the A8 and A2 national will have unrestricted access to the UK labour market”.
Agreed.
Perhaps Brexit was much about the unrestricted movement of non EU economic migrants / the unskilled entering the UK due to the failures of Schengen to police the EU borders?
Paul Flinders “However, I was trying to disprove my own hunch that Brits are less mobile. Failing to disprove myself I am left with my gut feeling that British workers, especially low skilled and semi-skilled trades are much less likely to take advantage of FoM than their A8 counterparts. Probably because we are so much worse at languages than our neighbours in the EU, plus - dare I say it, rather less enterprising than the national stereotype suggests - thus the UK does not derive as much benefit from FoM.”
From my perspective as a low or semi-skilled worker the big issue was not having any money in the bank to fund a move to any other country or even region of UK in the hopes of finding work.
Fair enough.
This “displacement” is, I think, another myth. How is the process of “displacement” supposed to take place (except in the minds of those not equiped for rational thinking - Nigel Farage again 
) ???
All the usual laws apply - you cannot just make someone redundant and replace them with a cheaper version of the same, whereever they come from.
Equally, you cannot sack someone on the grounds that you have access to someone who is cheaper.
If there is a job vacancy then the law says all those eligible to work in the UK and suitably qualified have equal access to that job.
The gig economy and seasonality should have an impact on the local workforce but in practice there is always a shortage of gig workers at times of increased demand for labour.
If employers choose to cheat then it’s not the fault of the system - it’s a failure to apply domestic laws.
That too but why do so many from the EU manage to make the trip?
Agree - I noted that I wasn’t sure there was any evidence that this actually happened.
True but you can choose an EU worker over a Brit for a new hire. In fact I doubt that it would be legal to offer someone less than a UK hire - but for some types of work the EU workers have a definite reputation for being harder workers than the UK candidates.
The gig economy is something of a separate issue I think.
True
Jane W’s post raises wider questions and rightly. Jane and Paul’s discussion has been interesting and informative, but also points to the fact that so much of the debate has been conducted around economic rather than social and cultural issues. The more intangible issues around identity and a sense of belonging - things we have long taken for granted - now need definition and value in terms of human needs. Such values might be based on communities of interest across the continent of Europe, whether linking coal miners, chess players or cheese afficianados. None of us is an island and the loss of a sense of belonging to a diverse cultural community forged in histories of friendship and conflict over centuries should be heard.
3 Likes
@John_Adams yours is a welcome and thought-provoking comment that I am still wrestling with over a cup of coffee, because I’m not at all sure that I have a reliable sense of belonging in the terms you set out in your last paragraph, and - if I can conjure it up for inspection - how I acquired it.
In particular, I’m concerned to understand how much of it has been forced upon me, by subtly coercive influences like schooling and family, and how much has been through my own inherent scepticism about what I’m told is ‘true’ about history, about conflict, and about friendship.
As you might infer, I’m sceptical about the value of a community of sceptics, even a sub-group of sceptic coal-mining fromards. 
People who have lived in one community for all their lives and look down on others as traitors because they have dared to move leave Britain and enjoy living in another country should never have had the vote.
I do not want to live in their narrowly defined Britain and am ashamed of my own country.
1 Like
I’m in the UK at the moment, visiting friends on the Worcs/Herefordshire border. It’s Harvest Festival. There’s boxes of fruit and veg outside front gates with notices inviting passers by to help themselves. People are celebrating a good harvest this year, in churches, in the pubs, in the villages. The countryside is beautiful. In the pub last night, listening to the locals discussing mostly farming matters, with that lovely local country burr, I actually had a lump in my throat. Nobody mentioned Brexit. The atmosphere is fantastic, all that’s best about being English. It’s been a long time since I’ve felt so emotional and so protective about that precious and fragile spirit that is essentially English, and it would be a crying shame to lose it. Hard to reconcile the here and now with the bigoted, hate-filled place that some posters conjure up as a picture of England. I’m certainly not ashamed of these honest, hard-working, friendly people with down to earth values. Yes I guess most of them have lived in one community for all their lives but it doesn’t mean they look down on people who have chosen a different path as traitors, why should they. Quite simply, they’re happy where they are. And I think that to even suggest that these people should never have had the vote, is - well, I’m actually lost for words, but arrogant would be one…
Can’t we have a bit of live and let live?
12 Likes
Certainly living and working in the U.K. Brexit doesn’t seem to matter to most people
3 Likes
absolutely with you on that Anna. Beautifully put.
3 Likes
Could not have put it better myself, well written Anna.
2 Likes
It’s probably not unreasonable to think in terms of economics as that is where a lot of the impact of Brexit will lie.
In wider terms I think that you can see where some of the British antipathy to the EU comes from - boundaries within Europe have always been more fluid so European Nations are much younger in the main than the UK and our island status inevitably sets us apart, even though our history is inextricably intertwined with that of Europe.
As to “National Pride” - again, Britain has viewed itself as a nation for longer than most of the EU - after all England and Scotland were united in the early 18th century but at the time of the French Revolution (1789) only half of “French” people actually spoke French.
This is a good video showing just how fluid European borders have been over the last 1000 years
Culturally I am not surprised that the UK stands a bit apart from the EU - but I think that the EU project has delivered tangible benefits not least peace in Northern Ireland because the Good Friday “fudge” (allowing Unionists to feel they were part of the UK and Nationalists to feel that they were part of a united Ireland) worked precisely because the UK and Ireland were in the EU - it is very sad that still-fragile peace is now threatened.
1 Like
Beautiful…That’s just brought a lump to my throat too…made me feel quite homesick…I’ve got family over again soon…I’ll be seeing two of my grandkids for the first time in almost 3 years…gonna fill up on Hugs until the next time I see them…
1 Like