Groupe de sécurité dripping

Hi all,

The groupe de sécurité on the water heater in our gite is making a loud dripping noise, again… enough to disturb sleep for our clients.

It has been changed twice already since the heater was installed 3 years ago.

Seems from internet research that most typical problems include pressure or temperature too high or limescale buildup (we are in a high limescale area).

The water temperature is very high so we have turned it down. I don’t really want to get a plumber out to change the groupe de sécurité again if it’s not necessary but not sure if there is an ‘easy fix’ that we can try first (is it possible to clean out limescale, for example?).

Any tips welcome, thanks in advance!

Danielle

Yes it’s usually Limescale damage and/or pressure too high, temperature is not a problem AFAIK.

You should turn the tap once a month to clear the limescale before it gets knackered. You could try operating the tap a few times to see if that clears it, might make it worse though.

Get a pressure reducer installed to stop it happening again :frowning:

Thanks James, there looks to be a little pressure reducer on there after all that the plumber must have installed last time. The tap moves freely and operating it as suggested doesn’t seem to have helped, so I think we’re on route to a new one after all!

Danielle

That’s annoying! On the upside, I remembered to run mine :wink:

First question that comes to my mind is "Into what is it dripping to cause a noise?"
Is the Groupe de Sécurité connected to the waste water system (in which case it really should work silently) or is it just dripping into a bucket or similar container ?
The volume of water that has to be released to control the pressure inside the tank within safe levels depends on both the number of degrees of temperature change taking place, and the volume of water being heated. A colder inlet water temperature (such as in winter), or a higher outlet water temperature will increase the volume of water to be discharged when heating the tank. Also, the larger the tank, then the more water will be displaced during heating. Turning down the maximum temperature to which the water is heated will reduce the volume of water that drips out, but will not stop it completely, as dripping is exactly what it is supposed to do.
You mentioned a _‘little pressure reducer’ ___so are you sure that this is in fact a pressure reducer, or could it just be an inline isolation tap ? I ask because all the pressure reducers I have seen are fairly lumpy things (about the size of your fist), and they are normally fitted next to the main stop tap / meter where the supply first comes into the building.

We have small, inline pressure reducers on each of our ballons, as well as a “fist sized” one on the incoming water main

That’s interesting. So is your hot water at a lower pressure than the cold ?

It’s within the group de sécurité itself (into the siphon underneath which is connected to a waste water pipe).

The problem is that the drip is not only during heating but constantly, and in fact this morning it is much worse - now a trickle like a tap that has been left running slightly. We are losing quite a lot of water straight down the pipe now.

When its functioning correctly it certainly doesn’t make a noise that is loud enough to sleep disturb the clients in the bedroom on the floor above, as the drip was doing!

With regards to temperature, the heater has a 1-5 scale and we were told by one plumber that it should be set to 4 to ensure that bacteria could not flourish in the heater. However, we have had complaints that the water is too hot - and I would agree, it steams quite violently as it comes out of the sink tap.

Please see the attached photos. You can now see the water flow inside the groupe de sécurité. Also, what I thought may be a pressure reducer - it is called a ‘Redufix’ and has +/- indicators for turning a little screw. It is located directly before the groupe de sécurité.

Hope this helps to clarify!

That’s the pressure reduction valve, but it sounds like the thermostat in the ballon may be malfunctioning if you are getting very hot water. From what you have said it is nearly boiling, but it shouldn’t be above 65c, maybe lower if you have reduced the setting. Is there anyway you can measure the temperature of the water. If it was much too high then it would account for the loss of water, but the groupe de sécurité is doing its job.

what sort of guarantee came with the hot-water ballon ??

Regarding your ‘Redufix’ valve, it does indeed seem to be a pressure reducer. Check that it is working correctly by turning it fully towards the ‘minus’ position. You should then find a considerable reduction in pressure of water coming from the hot tap. Then turn it slowly and incrementally in the plus direction until the pressure coming from the hot tap is just sufficient for your needs — the shower for example. I would do this as the first step in the fault finding process.

The Groupe de Securite should only discharge water when the heating element is working. Try turning off the electrical supply to the hot water tank, wait an hour (without using any hot water), and then see if it is still dripping. If it is, then the Groupe de Securite has a problem. Then try operating the drain valve briefly a couple of times to see if it resolves the problem. If not, then the Groupe de Securite probably needs replacing.

It would be helpful to know if the electrical supply to the hot water heater is on all the time, or if it is on a timer of some sort so that it only works at night for example ?
Also, is it fed with mains water, or water which is pumped from a private well ?

The temperature of the water delivered at the hot tap should not exceed 50 deg C.
I believe that if that temperature is exceeded, then the tap must be marked with a permanently affixed warning sign to indicate that the temperature is above 50 deg C. This is to avoid inadvertant scalding.
From your description it would seem that the water is currently way too hot for safety, so we need to check the thermostat function as follows:-
At a time when there is plenty of hot water in the tank, and the electrical supply to the heater is switched on, get another person to watch the electric meter whilst the tank heater thermostat is adjusted. You should probably be able to hear a slight click noise when the thermostat cuts in and out. The meter will give you an indication of when the heating element is drawing power, either by the speed of rotation of the dial (if it’s an old style meter) or the frequency of the flashing light on the newer types of meter. If the heating element continues to draw power when the thermostat is turned to the lowest setting (at a time when there is plenty of hot water in the tank), then the thermostat is faulty and needs to be replaced. In the interim you can roughly control the temperature by turning off the electrical supply to the tank.
For the longer term it is best to find the minimum temperature setting that suits your needs, not least from an economy point of view. Start with the thermostat on the mid setting (3 on your 1 - 5 scale) and then turn it down very slightly (a quarter of a number perhaps) each day until you find that you are running out of hot water, then turn it back up to the setting of the previous day and you should be fine. It will take a bit of trial and error over a few days, but the economy savings will be well worth the time and trouble taken to do this.

If you are using mains water, then there should be no need to have any particular thermostat setting to kill bacteria as there shouldn’t be any bacteria in the water in the first place. Just to be on the safe side, the usual advice is that water from the hot tap should not be used for drinking or cooking anyway.
If you are using well water, then you should have it analysed regularly to make sure it is safe to drink.

In your photos it looks like there is a bowl of water underneath the Groupe de Securite. If that is needed to catch overflow from the syphon during normal operation, then it would seem that the outfall waste pipe may be blocked somewhere, in which case it would be a good idea to unscrew the joints and check that the interior of the waste pipe is free and clear with a good flow to the drain.

It does seem very unusual that you have already had the Groupe de Securite changed twice in only three years of operation.Could well be that a combination of excessive pressure, and too high a temperature setting may be the cause of these rapid failures.
Whether or not limescale can be effectively cleaned from the hot water cylinder will depend on it’s make and design. Bearing in mind the cost of labour these days it may be cheaper to just replace the hot water cylinder with a new one.

Another thought that comes to mind is have you considered installing a relatively cheap electro-magnetic water softener ? No plumbing skills required — just a matter of tightly coiling the ‘aerial’ type wires around the main inlet cold water pipe. Switch it on and it silently and cheaply goes to work without any expensive chemicals being involved. It just makes the hard water temporarily behave like soft water by changing the ion polarity of the water molecules. I have used one for many years without any problems of furring up of appliance heating elements such as in washing machines, water heaters, or even my old fashioned kettle.

Good luck. Persevere and I’m sure that you will achieve economies in both water consumption and the cost of heating it.

Robert, Legionella can survive/ thrive in water temperatures of up to 60 C, this is the reason why there is a factory setting on the ballons of about 65 C, and the recommendation that the thermostat shouldn’t, in normal circumstances, be changed .

Well all I can say is that I have been drinking unboiled tap water for over 60 years and I haven’t contracted Legionella yet. The water that comes from our taps is tested daily by the water companies to ensure that it does not contain such bacteria and so there is no need to have any particular thermostat setting to deal with that which is not there.
Anyway, 65 C is far too hot for comfort and would be a dangerous setting to have in a domestic environment, particularly if children or elderly persons are present. This is why all the automatic temperature controlled ‘Mitigateurs’ sold for showers and baths have a safety stop at the 38 C mark.
Having installed a number of Ballons over the years, and having read the instructions that come with them, I have never found one with a factory pre-setting, nor any recommendation (other than a rough guide) as to what to set the thermostat to.
The thermostat settings have to be variable in order to be able to cope with a high flow demand from a relatively small cylinder where the scalding risk has been removed by the installation of a ‘Mitigateur’ on the hot outflow pipe of the cylinder, which adds cold water into the hot flow in order to prevent scalding risk at the tap at the point of usage.

Apologies for the late reply (fighting problems on several fronts whilst heavily pregnant!) and for your continuing thoughts on the matter.

Hubby will check pressure reducer and try the temperature check. Electrical supply is on all the time and everything is on mains water.

The bowl has only been needed the last few days since this problem started up again, not during normal operation. On normal flow through the groupe de sécurité, it drains perfectly.

We’re intrigued by the electro-magnetic water softener (kettles need descaling every 2 weeks at least and we will certainly have a problem with larger appliances sooner or later, I’m sure. What is the device called in French, please? And can it be found in larger DIY stores or would we need to find a specialist place?

I do hope to avoid having to take out the water heater to replace it as it is in a very tight spot (not sure we can even get it out without causing damage to plasterboard walls and door frame) and it would necessarily close the business for a time which we can ill afford… let alone having to start more unplanned works with the baby on the way.

In the meantime, I have a call out to our trusted plumber who’s coming later this week and we are just apologising profusely to guests in the hope that we can hang on without a major complaint until he gets here!

Thanks again!

If you do an online search for ‘electronic water descaler’ you will find a number of such devices. In French I believe it would be called a ‘détartrant à eau électronique’. I’m not sure where you would find one instore, but certainly they can be purchased online.
The one I use is a “Krystal electronic water conditioner” (bought in the UK) but I’ve had it for about 20 years and that make may no longer be on the market.

Hi Danielle,

This is a common problem in France and the simple reason us that plumbers don’t install expansion vessels on their HW cylinders. I’ve had many dripping groupe de sécurités that after installing an expansion vessel has solved this problem. As water is heated it will expand to increase the pressure in your system. If this pressure meets the limit on the safety valve in your groupe de sécurité then it will release water in order to reduce the pressure. As this water is constantly replaced by your cold water feed then it will continue to drip. Although a pressure reducing valve is a necessary safety addition to your installation it only regulates the pressure on the cold water inlet. Should pressure increase due to thermal expansion then an expansion vessel is then required. They are sized according to the volume of water in your system and generally colour coded for the type of system, I.e. Red for heating system and white for HW systems. There is a useful connection point on your groupe de sécurité (black plastic cap) to attach a vessel via a flexible hose. Your plumber should know how to do this but seeing as he hasn’t resolved your problem that might not be the case. Good luck J

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Hi Danielle,

French water systems work under pressure. With rare exceptions, everyone gets their supply at at least 3 times atmospheric pressure (3 Bars.) That is why you see all those chateaux d’eau around the countryside. By delivering water from 30 metres above the highest building in the commune, they are able to ensure that everyone gets sufficient pressure.
The groupe de sécurité consists of a non-return valve (to prevent backward contamination of the mains supply) a release tap and a pressure release valve that is pre-set to release cold water from the bottom of the tank when the pressure reaches 7 Bars during heating. If it drips all the time, you either have a faulty groupe de sécurité, or your input water pressure is greater than 7 Bars. This could happen if your property is more than 40 meters lower than the base of your local chateau d’eau and you do not have a functioning or correctly set pressure reducer.
Your pressure reducer should be fitted right after the meter where the mains water enters the property. this means that hot and cold water will be at the same pressure (otherwise your will have trouble balancing the output from your mixers.)
The pressure reducer should be fitted with a pressure gauge (manometer) so you can check the pressure at any moment. You can also get gauges that can be temporarily fitted to a tap for a rough check, but that is a less than perfect solution.
I don’t hear my groupe de sécurité dripping, but I don’t sleep in the same room as the chauffe-eau and also I am becoming deafer with the advancing years. But if your guests are being disturbed by the noise, it might be possible to wrap some sound insulating material around the overflow trap (taking care that you still leave access for air) or a neater solution would be to build a cupboard around the whole installation.
But there does appear to be a problem with your water system and you need to get that sorted first. Good luck!

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Hi,

Just to update all the lovely people who have taken the time to reply so far…

Plumber replaced the groupe de sécurité yesterday and it’s not dripping. Due to the water temperature being so hot despite only being set to 3, he’s quite convinced that the internal thermometer is faulty and needs to be replaced.

However, since we bought the water heater ‘off the shelf’ from Mr Bricolage, it is not a standard brand and the thermometer will have to come out first in order for us to go and find a compatible replacement. If that proves to be not so difficult, then it should be an easy(ish) fix and only out of action for a couple of days. More complex if a compatible thermometer is hard to find.

Best regards to all

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We also have one from Mr. Bric. The thermostat is a fairly standard universal type and it shouldn’t be hard to find a replacement. You should expect to pay around €30 - 40 for the part and call-out and labour on top of that. So you could end up with quite a big bill.
How long have you had it? If less than 2 years, you should be entitled to a refund on the cost of the thermostat, but you would need to have kept the bill.

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