How long can I stay without becoming tax resident

That may be the case Dave but we intend to live in France permanently and make it our home. Thus keen to get establish tax residency as soon as possible after arrival so we are clearly resident and can ensure our right to remain.

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Hi Izzy,

Blevin Franks are really only interested in retirees, not people living in France but working remotely for a UK company; I’ve asked.

That said, I have now found a company that can help and I think I’ve resolved my challenges.

Thanks anyway for the suggestion.

Rod

Sorry Rod, my reply was to Dave not you. @Rod_Webb
I’ve read your other posts on here and I’m really pleased you are getting everything resolved.
Take care
Izzy x

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I do intend to move permanently to France, get fluent, get tax residency etc, but initially wanted to see what it was like for up to 6 months a year while maintaining UK tax residency. And then when I’m more familiar with the country and language, make the permanent move. I’m not trying to avoid tax or anything (paying a ton in the UK currently). After spending a huge amount of time googling this there still seems to be equal responses both ways hence the confusion!

Thanks Izzy, it gets a bit confusing doesn’t it who’s responding to who. But I appreciate all the help. I’ve spent months, if not years investigating the tangle of tax in France for those hoping to move but still work for their UK registered company and I think I’ve finally got a pretty thorough understanding - though there’s clearly a lot of misinformation and misunderstanding out there too. I wonder if would be helpful if I summarised what I now know in a new thread?

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NO NO NO!!!
The first day of entry is counted as day1 and the day of exit as the last day. Passport will be stamped/digitally recorded on entry to and exit from the Schengen Zone to ensure compliance. The EU provides an online calculator to help in this regard.
In 2021 you can travel to the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days rolling period (so there must be an absence of 90 days if you stay the full 90 days). In practice this means that any time you wish to enter the Schengen, you need to count backwards the last 180 days, and see if you have been present in the Schengen for more than 90 days throughout that period.
So @DaveCh in direct answer to your supposition that you can back to back July - Dec and Jan - June to stay for a year is absolute bollocks! You just can’t have you cake and eat it!!

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Frankly, there should not be any confusion… the French Govt have been very clear… and very fair to all of us who are Resident before 31 December 2020…

the French Rules are laid out… we have talked you through them…

Over and out… off to play pétanque… :wink: :blush: :blush:

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That sounds like an excellent idea Rod if you have the time. It can seem daunting and complex so a practical guide might be very useful for others considering doing the same thing.
All the best to you
Izzy x

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What that man said, absolutely, 100%

Schengen is rolling 90 days in 180, as described - NOT “6 months a year” - stay for 90 days and you must then stay OUT of the entire Schengen zone for a further 90 unless you have a separate visa which says otherwise.

I hate to be repetitive but you need to get your head around this - I’m afraid too many Brits bought into the “it will be just the same as it always was” lie.

If you just want to spend 2 weeks of the year partying in Ibiza then, yes, there will be minimal changes.

If you want to stay more than 90 days per 180, move permanently, move goods or services in or out (including home Internet working) or work in the EU things will be massively different.

I am sure that you are much too sensible to have voted Leave - but if you did, “you knew what you were voting for” as I am sick of being told.

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I’m not sure if this element of Dave’s original post was picked up.

Dave - there is no “register as a resident” step before the end of December - you arrive, plug yourself into the French system (impôts, car registration, health, permanent place of residence etc.), then, with proof that you intend to remain and evidence that you are in France régulièrement (i.e. adhering to all pertinent rules, laws and responsibilities - nothing to do with schedule of visits), and had been as of 31.12.20, apply for a CdS as and when the French government start the process (Jul 2021 I think).

Prior to Brexit you might have been able to claim “posted worker” status - and I think that this is where some of the confusion over need to be in the French tax system comes from if working remotely for a UK company - but all of that ceases at the end of the year.

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If you want to stay in France longer than 90/80 you need to apply for a visa. It’s not complicated. But depending which visa you are able to get you may not be allowed to work.
Saying you need to register and you need a residence permit is missing the point. What you need to do is follow the rules. France will only give you what the WA says it has to give you, not what you think you need.

Dave, France doesn’t work like that at all. The rules are very strick and will become far more so for Brits after the 31st of December. France doesn’t actually care what others think or how things work elsewhere. Things are done the way they are here and that’s that, take it or leave it. Just saying :wink:

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No, it’s 90 days in 180. So three months in, and three months out. Again you are looking at this from a Uk perspective, and the famous 183 days. That will ne meaningless in France next year.

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The idea of working six months in France and six months in the UK must sound appealing but it’s the UK that’s taking your right to be a “digital nomad” away Dave. Before Brexit you could have digitally nomaded your way around Europe to your hearts content (within the rules of tax residency and dual taxation agreements of course). Next year you’ll be just like the citizens of any other third country are now, the IT powerhouse India for example, so my advice is don’t hold your breath on digital nomad rule changes. I don’t see France (or any other country) wanting to accommodate “tax exile” nomads just because they shop in Carrefour :slightly_smiling_face:

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The confusion over tax residency means that you won’t get a definitive response here, unless a dual specialist in the Franco-British dual tax agreement is lurking and offers some piece of wisdom. Would I try and argue the case with the French tax authorities that the centre of my economic interests is not France but the UK despite residing 183 days in France ? I might if I was bloody minded and had deep enough pockets to be able to pay the dues imposed first and attempt to gain them back later. I seem to recall somewhere though that there is already French caselaw on this particular point, my fading memory seems to recall that was an issue a few years ago with UK law firm partners spending 183 days in France and trying to claim UK tax residency - and failing miserably. In the end, it might come down to a conflict of laws situation in international public law. The French tax authorities always want their “bout de gras”, and will often go to extreme lengths to get it.

FWIW:
https://www.joptimiz.com/fiscalite%20residence%20fiscale%20183%20jours%20expatriation.htm

and another:
https://blog.bornhauser-avocats.fr/index.php/2017/04/07/residence-fiscale-en-france-le-mythe-des-183-jours/

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And this note published by reputed law firm August Debouzy in April 2020:

Interesting stuff Alex… I’m put it in it’s own thread, so others can find it more easily…

Definitely appreciate all the replies, but it isn’t very clear, there is a difference between residency in an EU country, and tax residency. One does not imply the other. Or maybe half the internet is just confused, which is entirely possible I guess. From nearly all of the articles I have read, this allows someone to spend up to 183 days a year in most EU countries before registering to pay tax there.

@graham @anon88169868 - yes of course with the standard 90 in 180 rule I couldn’t stay like I described. I was more meaning with residency, under the 183 day per year rule (which according to this forum, doesnt really exist). Although with my NZ passport even on the 90 in 180 rule I could stay in the Schengen, just switch countries https://www.mfat.govt.nz/assets/NZ-Embassies/Geneva-Switzerland/Border-controls-in-Europe-Schengen.pdf. And for the record I definitely voted remain! Being part of the EU was the whole reason I moved to the UK from NZ.

@John_Scully - Yes this is was why I was hoping to register as resident (but not tax resident) before the end of the year. But apparently it doesnt work like that. I dont really see it as tax exile as I’d still be paying tons of tax in the UK - some digital nomads arent tax resident anywhere though, so it IS possible to be in ‘tax exile’.

@RicePudding - Great articles thanks, best response so far. So it does indeed look like most of the internet is wrong.

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OK, where did you mention you are the holder of a NZ passport?

Some countries in Schengen will not apparently still honour the NZ agreement. :wink:
I don’t think that the NZ bilateral agreement will confer special rights in regard to work permits though…

The 183 day rule used to exist - not quite legally but tolerated. Especially as France was one of the few countries not to require foreigners to register. However Brexit has changed things!

You also need to look at the difference between losing tax residency in one country, and gaining it another. France and the UK have long been incompatible in these requirements which really hasn’t mattered up until now.

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