How long can I stay without becoming tax resident

NO NO NO!!!
The first day of entry is counted as day1 and the day of exit as the last day. Passport will be stamped/digitally recorded on entry to and exit from the Schengen Zone to ensure compliance. The EU provides an online calculator to help in this regard.
In 2021 you can travel to the Schengen Area for a maximum of 90 days in any 180 days rolling period (so there must be an absence of 90 days if you stay the full 90 days). In practice this means that any time you wish to enter the Schengen, you need to count backwards the last 180 days, and see if you have been present in the Schengen for more than 90 days throughout that period.
So @DaveCh in direct answer to your supposition that you can back to back July - Dec and Jan - June to stay for a year is absolute bollocks! You just can’t have you cake and eat it!!

4 Likes

Frankly, there should not be any confusion… the French Govt have been very clear… and very fair to all of us who are Resident before 31 December 2020…

the French Rules are laid out… we have talked you through them…

Over and out… off to play pétanque… :wink: :blush: :blush:

1 Like

That sounds like an excellent idea Rod if you have the time. It can seem daunting and complex so a practical guide might be very useful for others considering doing the same thing.
All the best to you
Izzy x

1 Like

What that man said, absolutely, 100%

Schengen is rolling 90 days in 180, as described - NOT “6 months a year” - stay for 90 days and you must then stay OUT of the entire Schengen zone for a further 90 unless you have a separate visa which says otherwise.

I hate to be repetitive but you need to get your head around this - I’m afraid too many Brits bought into the “it will be just the same as it always was” lie.

If you just want to spend 2 weeks of the year partying in Ibiza then, yes, there will be minimal changes.

If you want to stay more than 90 days per 180, move permanently, move goods or services in or out (including home Internet working) or work in the EU things will be massively different.

I am sure that you are much too sensible to have voted Leave - but if you did, “you knew what you were voting for” as I am sick of being told.

2 Likes

I’m not sure if this element of Dave’s original post was picked up.

Dave - there is no “register as a resident” step before the end of December - you arrive, plug yourself into the French system (impôts, car registration, health, permanent place of residence etc.), then, with proof that you intend to remain and evidence that you are in France régulièrement (i.e. adhering to all pertinent rules, laws and responsibilities - nothing to do with schedule of visits), and had been as of 31.12.20, apply for a CdS as and when the French government start the process (Jul 2021 I think).

Prior to Brexit you might have been able to claim “posted worker” status - and I think that this is where some of the confusion over need to be in the French tax system comes from if working remotely for a UK company - but all of that ceases at the end of the year.

2 Likes

If you want to stay in France longer than 90/80 you need to apply for a visa. It’s not complicated. But depending which visa you are able to get you may not be allowed to work.
Saying you need to register and you need a residence permit is missing the point. What you need to do is follow the rules. France will only give you what the WA says it has to give you, not what you think you need.

Dave, France doesn’t work like that at all. The rules are very strick and will become far more so for Brits after the 31st of December. France doesn’t actually care what others think or how things work elsewhere. Things are done the way they are here and that’s that, take it or leave it. Just saying :wink:

6 Likes

No, it’s 90 days in 180. So three months in, and three months out. Again you are looking at this from a Uk perspective, and the famous 183 days. That will ne meaningless in France next year.

1 Like

The idea of working six months in France and six months in the UK must sound appealing but it’s the UK that’s taking your right to be a “digital nomad” away Dave. Before Brexit you could have digitally nomaded your way around Europe to your hearts content (within the rules of tax residency and dual taxation agreements of course). Next year you’ll be just like the citizens of any other third country are now, the IT powerhouse India for example, so my advice is don’t hold your breath on digital nomad rule changes. I don’t see France (or any other country) wanting to accommodate “tax exile” nomads just because they shop in Carrefour :slightly_smiling_face:

5 Likes

The confusion over tax residency means that you won’t get a definitive response here, unless a dual specialist in the Franco-British dual tax agreement is lurking and offers some piece of wisdom. Would I try and argue the case with the French tax authorities that the centre of my economic interests is not France but the UK despite residing 183 days in France ? I might if I was bloody minded and had deep enough pockets to be able to pay the dues imposed first and attempt to gain them back later. I seem to recall somewhere though that there is already French caselaw on this particular point, my fading memory seems to recall that was an issue a few years ago with UK law firm partners spending 183 days in France and trying to claim UK tax residency - and failing miserably. In the end, it might come down to a conflict of laws situation in international public law. The French tax authorities always want their “bout de gras”, and will often go to extreme lengths to get it.

FWIW:
https://www.joptimiz.com/fiscalite%20residence%20fiscale%20183%20jours%20expatriation.htm

and another:
https://blog.bornhauser-avocats.fr/index.php/2017/04/07/residence-fiscale-en-france-le-mythe-des-183-jours/

1 Like

And this note published by reputed law firm August Debouzy in April 2020:

Interesting stuff Alex… I’m put it in it’s own thread, so others can find it more easily…

Definitely appreciate all the replies, but it isn’t very clear, there is a difference between residency in an EU country, and tax residency. One does not imply the other. Or maybe half the internet is just confused, which is entirely possible I guess. From nearly all of the articles I have read, this allows someone to spend up to 183 days a year in most EU countries before registering to pay tax there.

@graham @anon88169868 - yes of course with the standard 90 in 180 rule I couldn’t stay like I described. I was more meaning with residency, under the 183 day per year rule (which according to this forum, doesnt really exist). Although with my NZ passport even on the 90 in 180 rule I could stay in the Schengen, just switch countries https://www.mfat.govt.nz/assets/NZ-Embassies/Geneva-Switzerland/Border-controls-in-Europe-Schengen.pdf. And for the record I definitely voted remain! Being part of the EU was the whole reason I moved to the UK from NZ.

@John_Scully - Yes this is was why I was hoping to register as resident (but not tax resident) before the end of the year. But apparently it doesnt work like that. I dont really see it as tax exile as I’d still be paying tons of tax in the UK - some digital nomads arent tax resident anywhere though, so it IS possible to be in ‘tax exile’.

@RicePudding - Great articles thanks, best response so far. So it does indeed look like most of the internet is wrong.

1 Like

OK, where did you mention you are the holder of a NZ passport?

Some countries in Schengen will not apparently still honour the NZ agreement. :wink:
I don’t think that the NZ bilateral agreement will confer special rights in regard to work permits though…

The 183 day rule used to exist - not quite legally but tolerated. Especially as France was one of the few countries not to require foreigners to register. However Brexit has changed things!

You also need to look at the difference between losing tax residency in one country, and gaining it another. France and the UK have long been incompatible in these requirements which really hasn’t mattered up until now.

1 Like

The Info I and everyone else has given you is freely available on the French Govt sites… whether you care to believe it or not…

byee…

Sorry Dave, being resident in one jurisdiction and “legally” only paying tax in another is generally the big boys game (or US multinationals) who have deep pockets for the best tax advice. The people in the Impots, HRMC, etc. have smart cookies working for them too (some of which go on to be highly remunerated tax partners in the aforementioned firms) and, as much as I can understand the sentiment, the chances of a punter like you or me outwitting them or spotting a loophole are slim. Plus if you get it wrong the penalties are severe.

Between being on assignment abroad and moving homes several times I’ve had a some complicated tax issues. Fortunately personal tax advice from PWC and later KPMG was a perq of my job. For which I was very grateful because I was constantly surprised at just how complex and obscure the stuff was.

Based on that, my advice to you is to write down exactly what you want to achieve, pick up the phone to Bleven Franks (or similar) and pay for their informed opinion. It won’t cost a fortune, you will know exactly where you stand and can plan your life accordingly. Hopefully nomadically clattering your clavier without looking over your shoulder.

Good luck.

3 Likes

I do not claim to understand tax residency as my field of interest centres around cars.
To register a car here you are required to provide proof of “domicile”, not “address” or “residence”. Domicile is a state rather than a place & is often misunderstood by holiday home owners, for example.
Often presentation of a household bill is sufficient but if the address shown is NOT your domicile, you are lying.
Today, vehicle registrations are processed online & access to the system by individuals is reliant on the applicant being on another government database such as income tax, health or social security - none of which are open to tourists. New arrivals would need to use a third party.
For vehicle registration purposes residency is measured differently to tax & the EU has this -

  1. REGISTERING A MOTOR VEHICLE IN THE MEMBER STATE OF RESIDENCE

3.1. What is the Member State of residence for the purpose of registration?

According to the Court of Justice, registration is the natural corollary of the exercise of the powers of taxation in the area of motor vehicles. It facilitates supervision both for the Member State of registration and for other Member States, since registration in one Member State constitutes proof of payment of taxes on motor vehicles in that State (11).

Every individual must register his vehicle in the Member State in which he is normally resident. Article 7 of Directive 83/182/EEC (12) and Article 6 of Directive 83/183/EEC (13) set out precise rules for determining normal residence in situations where the persons concerned are respectively temporarily or permanently living and driving in a Member State other than their own. However, the case law of the Court of Justice holds that the quantitative criterion to which this article refers (having to live more than 185 days per year in a given place) cannot be taken as the main criterion if there are other factors which alter the situation.

According to the Court of Justice, where a person has both personal and occupational ties in two Member States, his normal residence, determined in the context of an overall assessment by reference to all the relevant facts, is that where the permanent centre of interests of that person is located; in the event that such an overall assessment does not result in its determination, primacy must be given to personal ties (14).

@Stella is absolutely correct. It is a requirement.

Actually some countries do want to accommodate digital nomads, but they are a bit colder than France. See https://e-resident.gov.ee/

As for the original poster, I am afraid you seem to be from the “Cake and eat it” school. Lots of things in your “plan” just don’t stack up and residency is a two way street with obligations as well as privileges. Many rules have been successfully bent over the years but I think it is unlikely that the French authorities will be lenient on UK residents trying to game the system post-Brexit. And the cutoff date is 31st December this year, BTW, even if there are some extra months in which to get the paperwork sorted. If you can’t prove residency by that date then you miss the boat.

2 Likes