There is a health care agreement between the U.K. and France but maybe it only applies if you have a S1 form? Fir that you have to be retirement age and I don’t know if it only applies to french residents before brexit it not.
Yes, Brexit now rules out the S1 for most. Plus removes the exemption on paying social charges on capital gains.
Yes, Brexit now rules out the S1 for most. Plus removes the exemption on paying social charges on capital gains.
Is there any exemption to social charges on capitol gains for people who were living in France before brexit?
Linder
We’ll certainly find out when this year’s Annual Declaration is made for Income received 2021.
For those eligible, it was still being refunded in 2021, for certain CSG payments charged on the 2020 income.
Is that correct? When I used régime réel (as an artisan) I only paid actual income tax on the net figure left over after all the various cotisations were taken off.
This is one way in which French taxation is fairer than the UK where NI is paid on the same figure as income tax i.e. “double dipping” by HMRC.
Well apart from the UK trying to say NI is anything but tax, so they can manipulate it upwards at will and say they’ve not increased income tax(!), the other thing I’ve noticed is that the double taxation agreement almost seems to have been written to only protect income tax and not social charges(ie NI) from being double charged.
To avoid NI (UK) or social charges (France) the Double Taxation Agreement does not look to be much help.
Re S1, I believe it’s only possible to get now as a cross-border worker and I think only if you were resident in France on or before 31Dec2020. I am not sure if you also had to be a crossborder worker as well, on or before 31Dec2020, but my gut feeling is not and that residence prior to that date would be sufficient if one later becomes a crossborder worker. One form of this is called frontier worker and there is another type.
Otherwise so far as I know the only other way to qualify for an S1 is to be a retiree eligible for UK state pension, resident in France. I’m unsure if that requires residence in France to have started by 31Dec2020, or not.
I just wanted to highlight what Linder wrote. A quick search of this site will also bring up lots of rental horror stories.
The other thing which is frequently mentioned on here, is the cost of renovating. It is far more expensive and whilst property may appear to be cheap, that is a very deceptive appearance.
Better to be forewarned. It sounds like you could have a nice life in France without the property empire.
Interesting question - I thought the the trade and (non) cooperation treaty keeps social security co-ordination - I’ve looked it up, from the following I would say it does apply - not checked out the protocol though…
PS - as a frontier worker you might be interested that the suspension of teleworking restrictions (25%) has been extended to June 2022 now… (says for EEA countries, but probably could argue applies to those UK covered by WA?)
HEADING FOUR
SOCIAL SECURITY COORDINATION AND VISAS FOR SHORT-TERM VISITS
TITLE I
SOCIAL SECURITY COORDINATION
Article 488
Overview
Member States and the United Kingdom shall coordinate their social security systems in accordance with the Protocol on Social Security Coordination, in order to secure the social security entitlements of the persons covered therein.
Article 489
Legally residing
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The Protocol on Social Security Coordination applies to persons legally residing in a Member State or the United Kingdom.
-
Paragraph 1 of this Article shall not affect entitlements to cash benefits which relate to previous periods of legal residence of persons covered by Article SSC.2 of the Protocol on Social Security Coordination.
Article 490
Cross-border situations
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The Protocol on Social Security Coordination only applies to situations arising between one or more Member States and the United Kingdom.
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The Protocol on Social Security Coordination shall not apply to persons whose situations are confined in all respects either to the United Kingdom, or to the Member States.
Article 491
Immigration applications
The Protocol on Social Security Coordination applies without prejudice to the right of a Member State or the United Kingdom to charge a health fee under national legislation in connection with an application for a permit to enter, to stay, to work, or to reside in that State.
I think a few things have overlapped in this thread.
First off, we were taking about the taxes and social charges on capital gains resulting from selling property. Not social charges that are applied in other situations.
For capital gains in property there is an exemption on the social charges for all europeans where another european country is their competent state, and therefore pays their health bills, So pre the end of transition on 31/12/20 all UK citizens with an S1 had this exemption. The new forms now specifically exclude the United Kingdom from this. And even worse some notaires are actually adding social charges on to all British citizens even those who were resident with the exemption before 2021….
New residents of pensionable age can no longer get an S1. The co-ordination of social security does I think apply only to exportable benefits now… “You will not (at present) be able to be covered, at any stage, by the UK S1. The UK government has so far given no indication that it will attempt to negotiate a replacement for the S1 for pensioners.”
So new state pensioner residents who are thinking of investing in property and buying and selling need to think carefully as to whether it’s worth joining the French Health Service or continue to buy comprehensive private health insurance and hope the exemption will apply to them (which is not yet certain).
Don’t understand that, as rental market can be highest in -for example - university towns where greater numbers of people with good salaries on short term contracts. Beach and ski resorts have lots of low paid seasonal workers who may not be ideal tenants…
Different application of social charges Stella! As a venerable person you should still just pay the 7.5% prélèvement sociale, not the CSG and CRDS.
Again, different things. Cotisations are not social charges! You will have most probably paid social charges on the same amount as you paid income tax on, unless of course you were a frontier worker
Not according to all the sources I’ve looked at. Coordination of social services covers quite a lot of ground, so need to go into the detail of each element.
Ummm…well, it is a catch-all term. AFAIAA the term “cotisations” covers payments towards the health system, the state pension, social security benefits, etc., which all seem pretty social to me. I’d also consider CSG & CRDS to be cotisations - literally “side payments”.
I’m not arguing, just very curious.
@JaneJones
Perhaps I am confused… more than likely… but I am quoting from my own Avis d’impôt établi en 2021
it certainly looks as if they have refunded CSG which was originally deducted at source.
I shall look with interest at how they sort things on this year’s Declaration.
In my head, what you pay as deductions from your earned income - your salary or your profits - is what I think of as cotisations.
The bill that the tax office sends based on unearned income or foreign income that you declared on your tax return, i.e. income that no cotisations have been paid on, is “social charges”.
So it is the same thing but levied differently.
Yes I suppose if considered broadly it could be……To me cotisations are what I paid to URSSAF(or any other caisse) for my individual health care, what is taken off by employer for individual pension and so on. All local stuff and for specific benefits to me.
And social charges CSG and CRDS etc are what I pay to the national State for the greater good of France. I can’t remember if salaried workers also pay? I presume so.
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Beach and ski resorts also have holiday makers and In some popular beach resorts( in my experience) there is a shortage of annual rental properties as most appear to be seasonal rentals as they generally make more money, also doing short term let’s may be more work but solve the problem of having tenents who can not be evicted easily for not paying there rent. Sorry it was me who diverted a bit, I’ll try not to do it again 
Linder
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They do indeed. I remember when the CSG was introduced under Mitterrand (around 1991?), and similarly for the RDS in 1996.