@ Elaine, if someone gets killed during a hunt and the police / legal investigation shows that death to be inadvertently, it is very likely that there will be no punishment at all. But that is no different from death by any circumstance proven to be inadvertently.
what punishment is carried out on the hunters when they inadvertently kill a 'civilian'?
Yes they're one of the bug bears of rural France, mountain biker shpot the other day too and when we're out on a training run (road race cycling) it's very unnerving rounding a bend at 40+kmh to find a load of blokes and dogs in the middle of the road, blokes waving guns and dogs running around madly. But they're a strong group with their own political party or at least Nihous, ran for president last time round... and they get votes!
http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chasse,_p%C3%AAche,_nature_et_traditions
hunters...........
until this year we have been blighted by the idiots. they are individuals not an organised hunt , who come across the fields towards our house, illegally firing guns at a distance of less than 20m from our garden. the law states 150m, i have had years of screaming fights with them, i caught two adults and a child and a pack of dogs shaking a tree to dislodge one of our cats from [we have seven] i have had a gun pointed at me and shot over my head, they are a menace particually when they have been drinking , i wish they would ban hunting here as in england but thats as likely as a hen growing teeth, its the only thing that blights my life here. this year however for some reason they are keeping away from my house and i dont know why?j not complaining but dont know why, each year and every sunday ive had to set a very loud music system up outside pointing out into the fields and have it on full from first light till dark, that draws them up a bit short when they come into earshot i have to say and for those that ignor it and plow on regardless it certainly ruins their ambiance! brainless idiots i think, ive seen them shooting blackbirds and virtually everything that moves. thankfully i read statistics the other week that so far this year they have lost 32 hunters in shooting accidents thats the good news however the bad news was it was plus one mushroom picker killed and one motorist shot in the side of the face as he drove past a wood on a main road!
your daughter sounds lovely Brian and so do you! A visit around crufts will soon illustrate your point regarding selective breeding but what was once a thriving money-making industry has come under serious questioning in recent years regarding these practices of creating unhealthy, unnatural dogs (my sister understands this argument more than I do as she has been rescuing/re-homing scottish terriers for years now). I believe it also illustrates how historically acceptable practices can change when enough people question them (and my goodness, we've seen a few of them - as if i need to tell you!) animal sacrifice, female circumcision etc etc
It has been enlightening talking to you Brian and now i must away but hope we can continue out discussion another time. Enjoy your life. e
Of course, I have ridden for many years and love horses. I always have dogs and cats around and other animals at times. Certainly we communicate and have antipathies. Ihave no actual doubt about our bonds. I was saying that we slowly but surely domesticated them, which entailed making genetic modifications to make them bigger, stronger and so on from their ancestral typologies and there was no explicit consent. It is a pernickitty point but illustrates our contradictions as a species. Good on your daughter, especially arch and anth which is a dying breed. My youngest daughter was fascinated by Buddha at age two, sat in front of a massive statute in Thailand at three and has one by her bed. She knows the story of Siddharta Boddhisavata more or less off by heart at eight now. She is ambivalent about meat, eats little and questions why we eat it. That is fine. She dislikes the hunting but does not question it at all, it is choice and that is her philosophy.
do you believe that species can only communicate via speech? no telepathy, body language, energetic exchange? Rose communicates with me and we share no common audible language but i know by a flick of the ear, a movement of her head, a stamp of a foot what she's communicating to me fanciful to you maybe? but many people who have animals in their lives can communicate with them and do not share a common tongue. Brian I am not romanticizing animals here just feel we have closer bonds to them than at first may seem apparent.
I hear what you are saying Brian regarding riding and yes I 'keep' a fell pony and know there is still much un-picking and transition going on. And I would NEVER expect anybody to change because of me - it is because of themselves that people change - we can only present an alternative - that's all. Interesting your occupation, my daughter is studying Arch and Anth at Bristol Uni, she too is a vegetarian - it was her independent choice at 7 years of age (as although I was veggie I did give my children small amounts of meat believing they would make there own mind up when old enough) my son still eats some meat my daughter stopped. Choices above all are sacred but presenting alternatives also of value.
Elaine, I am an anthropologist and the study of humanity is my profession and passion and the sordid truth is that a vast majority of human beings are dependent on animal produce and do not, in sad fact, even get enough. Where I worked in those early days was example only but is also the tip of a vast iceberg. Remeber also, that the great majority of Taoists, Buddhists, Hindhus and other belief groups who include sizeable numbers of vegetarians are not vegetarians. Western adoptions of eastern beliefs are too tailored to be representative and do not set any kind of norms either. Awareness is personal and you are perfectly entitled to yours along with your beliefs, do not expect people to change for or because of you though. Unless species have communication skills such as speech the notion of voluntary and involuntary sacrifice of the self to another species is at best an absurdity. Finally, the contradiction within. You have a riding helmet. It implies you ride or have ridden. We have genetically altered a species to be ridden without explicit consent and continue to exploit that genus equus, is that natural and therefore permissible?
Brian thank you for your comment -)))) i too understand the animal volunteering its life in exchange that a human can have life and respect that ....... but most of us do not live in such extreme environments as the one you've described and many people are 'habitual' eaters, i just think awareness comes slowly to some but change cannot take place without 'norms' being challenged from time to time -)) and i'm sorry if i sounded like a preacher - i really am not and truly believe in a free will universe etc etc just feel amongst friends on this forum and safe enough to express a viewpoint. I have a riding helmet...... -))))) really lovely talking to you xe
Elaine, be prepared to bang your head against a few walls. Simply because I a) was a butcher's Saturday boy for three years whilst at school and b) worked opposite Smithfield meat market I became a vegetarian and ate no meat, fish, fowl or eggs for 12 years. Then I worked in communities in the high Andes where one would simply have died without the meat proteins, etc because the agricultural range was so narrow. After working with societies that still hunted I bought my first bow and eventually hunted myself. I love and respect every living being, I am also able and willing to humanely slaughter, butcher and eat some because I know all of the ins and outs and pros and cons of the arguments. After several millenia of eating animals of all kinds our species will not stop because of a sermon like yours, which it is in many people's minds. I know what you mean, but get a crash helmet ready for those walls your head will soon be meeting.
i think the hunters are doing you all a great service for they are awakening your compassion to the hunted animals - maybe you can extend these feelings to all living creatures - just a thought
Well I am a committed vegetarian of over 22 years and a Tao cultivator who isn't living in France but coming over the end January 2012 (with an 'adopted' french daughter living near Lille) and I run the risk of virtual arrows, bullets and glares but WHEN WE DEVELOP THE CAPACITY AND COMPASSION WITHIN OURSELVES TO STOP REGARDING ANIMALS AS A FOOD GROUP DISCUSSIONS LIKE THIS WILL BECOME DODO'S.............tell me, what is the difference between a dog and a boar, a cat and a chicken, a horse and a cow - other than a cultural one .... one is acceptable food group, the other a beloved pet, but they all bleed have feelings experience fear............ I will stop now as i don't usually 'soapbox' my views preferring to 'walk the walk' and let others join me should they wish (i am actually very tolerant lol!) but having read this discussion those amongst you that eat meat should pay a visit to your local slaughter-house
Coincidentally I discussed this with two French friends who are both sports teachers and have a young daughters who live in the 'middle of nowhere'. They need to run, swim and so on a bit every day. The husband is also involved in a team game that competes internationally for which he must practice every day. Their local hunt has told them that they should stay indoors on Sundays because where they live is so wooded that it could be dangerous to go out and (get this bit) why should the hunters look out for people wandering around when they are hunting game? They said that this would never be tolerated in the part of the Gironde they originate from and have told hunters they know when on family visits. The husband said that a league table of hunts from 0 to 10 would be useful and that it should be distributed to clubs, mairies, newspapers and more. This is a very quiet, gentle family who do not get angry about much.
I have found snares as well. I think they were just inside the adjoining hunt but only a couple of metres from a path and near a small stream. OK, ringadon are a pest hereabouts and I have seen areas overrun by them (coypu) in Amazonian Peru where crops are depleted. So controls may be in order but so cavalier?
Hunts are good and bad and that is often the fault of the president and HIS inner circle. Where there are complaints then the associations could be fined for snares, etc and even if it is the neighbouring hunt then surely one would act to 'reform' the other. It just does not happen. It is not only expats but also French folk who are unhappy with the bad minority, but nobody is doing anything concrete.
It would be interesting to analyse these comments into 'good & bad' by area! Like Ben Mongoose, I live in the Charente, and you will have gathered my opinion of our local Chasse from my comments yesterday.
Regarding Ben's comment that "Trapping with wires etc. is always actively prosecuted by the police;" - well, a couple of years ago one of our cats was caught in a piège. We found him after 14 days - fortunately still alive. There was no indication that the snare had been checked. We complained to the President of the local chasse - who to his credit tried to trace the culprits (without any reported success). We also reported it to the Maire (gallic shrug) and to the Gendarmes. The latter could not have cared less; since we did not know the culprit, they said, we couldn't bring a complaint.
I am pleased to report that said cat is still with us, having made a complete recovery thanks to our excellent local vet.
I think hunters are generally VERY selfish people , why can't I walk with the children and dogs in the countryside on a so called family day Sunday ??
I met with the president of La Chasse and stopped hunting on our land which they have respected not before them showing off their spoils of several trapped muskrats that were dying very slowly having had their tails chopped off while they were alive . I requested they were dispatched quickly rather than leaving them to suffer .. clearly there is a lot of cruelty involved in hunting .. in my opinion they have no compassion for living creatures and they don't respect distances from children even when motivated in front of their mates
Broadly speaking I don't think they have much intelligence sad to say ..
Ben M. As a social scientist I do not trust statistics, so tongue in cheek there. Those are reported incidents. Unreported, I am assured, by far outnumber those. Yet for the rest of it I guess you and I are saying more or less the same but by different routes. I would hunt but the club here is such a closed group they will not have me and have made that clear. We have a gallic shoulder shrugger for a mayor and that is that. I am, I imagine, getting a bit long in the tooth (albeit I am at least a decade younger than most in this commune) and so should call it a day. I have been advised that if I feel threatened by a deer (and if I own the right type of arrow - which I do) or a boar then I should bag it in self-defence and eat it to clear away the mess (found the boar version a bit Obelix-like and had to laugh). I think it a pity to waste a hunting bow on traget shooting, but then I have never hunted for the buzz, prefer the bags and a full freezer. The one line this hunt draws is wire traps, none here. A large liquid lunch then a full chamber and cocked staggering across a field with children playing in it is apparently reason to keep children, cats, dogs and so on in, they tell us. As for 200 metres, we were asked if we expect them to carry measuring equipment and I produced my laser for that purpose and told them where to find them. It is a game, I am disgruntled because I have young children and the hunters know but until my wife gave them hell for leather gave not a hoot. However, it is a few individuals on that front and the majority know my real views which brings me tidbits for the pot occasionally.
Driving through the Cevennes a year or so back we came across an organised boar hunt, huntsmen posted along the road ready to shoot anything driven their way by the dogs. Just round the next corner, out of sight of the last gun, a superb boar trotted across the road in front of our car. I swear he was grinning!
As for the dangers of being out and about during the hunting season, we avoid walking in the woods during the hunting season. Just too dangerous, even if you wear brightly coloured clothing. Some of these guys will shoot at anything that moves. Someone shot at our cat. We found the pellet lodged in his ear. We also try to avoid driving down the narrow road leading to our village when we know there has been a hunt. They come roaring down the road in their 4X4s as though they're the only people on the road, forcing us onto the verge or into the ditch. As they find it normal to have a canon or three of rouge before setting off in the morning, some more with their packed lunch and probably a final toast before setting off home they're probably well over the limit and are frankly lethal. Mais tout ça c'est normal, apparently.
Well, I am a hunter, have been hunting in The Netherlands, the Bordeaux area and now in the Charente, so maybe I'm a bit biased ;-) As goes for most things where humans are involved the largest part of the organized hunts and the participants are very reasonable. But you'll always find a bunch of morons between the good ones, those who drink before and during the hunt, the trigger-happy ones that shoot at joggers, dressed in black, at straying cats and dogs and even at horses and fellow hunters. The season 2010-2011 in France counted 20 deadly accidents directly linked to hunting and another 14 deaths during a hunt, but for reasons like a heart-attack, drowning or falling of a high observatory post. Considering that there were abut 1,5 million hunting licenses in that year.... But they also shot (accidentally) 4 horses, 4 cows and one donkey
For those concerned that their livestock will be shot: the dates for the hunting-seasons for your department can be found at:
http://www.oncfs.gouv.fr/Chasser-dans-les-regles-ru18/Dates-douverture-de-la-chasse-2011-2012-ar958
But I must also agree that there are differences between the really rural area's and the more populated ones. In the rural area's the hunt is still an integrate part of the way of life. State rules and regulations are more often ignored. The people know when a hunt is planned and where and take that into account. So when you bought a nice little farmhouse in "la campagne" chances are that your complaints will not allways been dealt with. But even they will respect rules such as not shooting in the direction of houses, the 200-meter rule, not crossing your garden without announcing it etc....
Trapping with wires etc. is always actively prosecuted by the police; if you find one, destroy it and report it's location.
In the more populated areas you do find a lot more of hunts being organized in the hunting reserves, plots of land where a hunter or a hunting-club has rented or bought the exclusive permission. These hunts are normally well organized, secured and are normally announced at the marie or even in local newspapers.
I ride my horses every day through the local woods and chemins at all times of the year, I am generally out around 3 to 4 hours at a time. I am always coming across the hunts and in 6 years I have always found them to be polite and curtious, even suggesting alternative routes if I am going straight towards an area already being hunted or stopping the hunt in order to alow me and the other riders with me to pass. I ride the whole of the Swiss Normandy area which is quite a large area around 40x40kms.
Could it be that I make an effort to communicate and not judge their way of life or is it just that in this region all the hunters are bizzarely nice people..............................interesting