The client is usually at the mercy of the agent. It doesn't help that some agents are in cahoots with some notaires. To compound the problem the Acte Authentique states (paraphrasing) ' the buyer agrees to buy the property in the state it is found without any recourse to the seller, agent or notaire' etc etc This doesn't mean the buyer is completely powerless but he or she doesn't hold many aces..
well-summarized.
Hi Brian,
I have been trying to find out what the legal relationship is between an agent and their 'client' - the buyer who pays their fee, in respect of a duty of care and providing full information. Conversations with some of the notaires I have encountered has been 'woolly' at best.
I'm a surveyor and it doesn't take an overdose of cynicism to see a possible commercial self-interest on the agent's side to attempt to dissuade a buyer from learning more about a property than the tick-box (and wholly inadequate) diagnostic reports. I have received complaints from clients that agents tell them they don't need a survey..... is it ignorance, complacency or greed?
You strike me as someone who might help cast some light on this apparent conflict of interest in the estate agent industry!
Where there's easy money to be had, all the fast-buck Eddies can be found
I don't know if these people are out to deceive you.
Brian Milne will surely be able to tell us.
True enough but that doesn't make all estate agents bad. Some are indeed crooks but the majority i've known or know are not. I worked with a dishonest agent who went to prison. I also helped get a notaire struck off for malpractice. Most notaires are fine but there are crooks too so buyer beware !
Years back I showed a client around, he wanted to see as many properties in a couple of days with a view to buying, he seemed serious. We got on well from the start, very chatty and familiar so I didn't get him to sign the Bon de Visites. It transpired he was another agent from away setting up in my area. He basically took my properties and resold as many as he could without any conscience whatsoever. I didn't get caught again !
thank you Jane for this info! How about the taxe foncieres and habitation? Do you split the cost the first year after the sale?
Anyway, whatever the matter they are all bound by contract law which, if necessary, can be dealt with legally. Since they are more or less the same, under EEA regulation (not EU as too many people shout) there is little real difference other than how contracts are individually phrased, so it can never be a case of France is different. As a self-employed person for three decades, I have got to know contracts too well to my chagrin but at least know that whoever signs one is bound by it but also whoever they are contract to or with is equally bound legally to the terms of the contract. That people negotiate around contractual agreements usually works but when it does not then there is all hell loose sometimes. The agencies charging high percentages are shooting themselves in the feet, those agents who work for below 5% do quite well for themselves except in the case of the lowest price properties whereby the earnings sometimes pay back most of the investment into the sale but do not reimburse all. Of course, upper level prices make a packet and that is particularly where agents often do least work and should drop charges. They still get good money.
Ultimately everybody but the agent pays for everything, the agent usually comes out on top but with sales at present it is hardly a fantastic income for the amount of work required.
Where I draw the line is where there are English speaking only agents who refuse to get involved with the surveys, do minimal business with the notaires and often cause the errors that cost well over the odds. There are probably speakers of other languages too, but it is the English speakers I have heard of. They also avoid dealing with French buyers unless they can speak English. Now that is something that should not be tolerated at all and agencies who take such people on should be exposed for what they are doing and some kind of action put in place that can be taken against them. In the UK would somebody tolerate an agent without English? There would be outrage.
You said "The dodgy ones et up such sites to prove others are not the real McCoy, simply that." There are no dodgy sites in the bunch, as far as I can see. The information they give is all true and none of them are fronts for estate agents. Wether they give useful information... It's al a lot of 'kicking in open doors' as we say in the Netherlands. Like 'you have to clean up before taking pictures'.
But judging from some of the ads on LeBonCoin, even this advise is not heeded by everybody.
Quite.
Does selling without requiring a real estate agent pay off financially?
In France, a real estate agency's fees are very high (5 to 10% of the price as a rule)
An individual who wishes to sell his house or apartment necessarily therefore questions the need of an intermediary to sell the property.
The cost of a real estate agency will increase the purchase price of your property, which will make it less attractive to purchasers in relation to other goods for sale.
After various real estate appraisals, you get an idea of the market-value of your property.
An home-seeker will look at that final price he will have to pay and no one will care because whether it includes an agency fee. So selling without a real estate agency gives you the advantage of lowering the price considerably while keeping your net selling price.
This can often make your property more competitive compared to similar goods sold via an agency or, these days, a 'conseiller immobilier indépendant' and therefore sell more quickly.
This is what has brought success to websites dedicated to real estate ads such as PAP.fr. This allows you to reduce the price paid by the eventual purchaser, while protecting your net selling price.
With all due respect John, I find that people who are willing to go to extraordinary lengths to 'trick' vendors and agents in order to avoid paying a commission remain tricksters throughout the whole purchase. They inevitably end up in disputes with vendors, notaires and local Mairie over all sorts of trivial details.
As an estate agent (who charges a 'reasonable' commission of 3%) I never ask people to sign a 'bon de visite' as my relationship with buyers and vendors is based on trust. If someone is looking to cheat or trick me or my vendor ... then I'd rather not meet him in the first place.
Not easy...
But is there not enough dodging going on?
Yes 6% PLUS is far too high.....that is one small part of the problem.
It is the property and the presentation of which sells the property....
sorry....not the agent.
It is the tools of the agent and their superiors which ignites the interest
initially.
I work with a company in California which posts details of your properties
for a fee and a %......but they attract only those who are looking for something a little
different....and a little special. The focus is all over the world. When I understand their
very verbose contract I will exhibit with them.
Some of them are, but for the normal person knowing which is which is more my point.
Most of the sites John linked to are OK.
Immobilier danger is an independent player who gives good advise but is slightly slanted anti-broker.
PAP (partculier à particulier) used to be the go-to site if you wanted to sell without a broker. But they've been overshadowed and surpassed by LeBonCoin. Everybody uses LeBonCoin and if you are selling, you should too!
You could put your house on Immogo and get a french translation that way, to use on LBC. Of curse you will have to deal with french requests either way.
BFM business is a magazine. The information given seems correct, albeit not very original.
Le Particulier is a typical 'link trap' filled with content about selling to get sellers to click on their advertisers (money lenders, diagnostique companies, insurers). The information seems correct, but the site could do with some editing. Very hard to read.
The virtuose marketing site is another site with general information and tips about how to sell.
So I don't agree that these sites are fly traps made by agencies to lure their customers in by making them afraid of other agencies.
I've done a lot of buying and selling myself, with and without agency. If you can find a decent agency (and they do exist) it can certainly be an excellent help. Your best bet is a small family owned business, that is not part of a big chain. These franchise chains will hire anyone and you don't have to know the business to work for them. Just pay your monthly franchise fees.
One important difference is that selling directly can make you more competitive if there are other similar properties being sold in your area.
Se passer d’une agence immobilière pour vendre vaut-il le coût financièrement ?
En France, les frais d’une agence immobilière sont très élevés (de 5 à 10% du prix du bien en règle générale).
Un particulier qui souhaite vendre sa maison ou son appartement s’interroge donc forcément sur l’utilité d’un intermédiaire pour vendre son logement.
Les frais d’une agence immobilière viendront augmenter le prix d’achat de votre bien, ce qui le rendra moins attractif pour les acquéreurs face aux autres biens à vendre.
Après différentes estimations immobilières, vous aurez une idée du prix du marché pour votre bien.
Un acquéreur ne regardera que le prix final pour lui et ne se souciera pas du fait qu’il comprend ou non des frais d’agence.
Vendre sans agence immobilière vous procure donc l’avantage de pouvoir placer le prix de votre bien légèrement plus bas tout en conservant votre prix net vendeur.
Ceci permet souvent d’être plus compétitif par rapport à des biens similaires vendus avec agence et donc de vendre plus rapidement.
C’est ce qui fait le succès des sites réservés aux annonces immobilières entre particuliers comme PAP.fr. Cela vous permet de réduire le coût de votre vente.
Source : http://www.immobilier-danger.com/Vendre-sans-agence-immobiliere-362...
Nobody is saying any of that, except that you are branding them all crooks. Plenty are for sure, not all by any means. The sites are not reliable. You are failing to actually explain the significance of sites you are posting and the point you are trying to make. The dodgy ones et up such sites to prove others are not the real McCoy, simply that. That is cut throat business, fair enough, but not being honest if they are caught they are those who I believe squeal loudest.
You obviously have very good French, many people do not. There are many hurdles for those who do not and a good agent will guide them through or often do things for them like getting in SPANC and diagnostics. Of course word of mouth is best, but being above the law in some cases as people might be by diverting around contracts makes trouble and a high price in money and effort.
You have been buying and selling often from the looks of it. Were all of those sales as smooth and perfect as you say? It appears to me that actually smooth sales are as common as hen's teeth, just a little glitch enters into most, especially from notaires.
Anyway, let Gregor who appears to be a straight dealer who advises his clients and is neither a Brit nor French put his contribution in since I am a layman looking in.
In the end, the contract often puts the fees on the account of the buyer, so he doesn't have to pay notary fees over that sum. But legally, the seller has the contract and the seller pays the fees.
Anyhow, it is a moot point, since in reality, they split the fees. The costs for the agent come out of the negotiaton margin. It is money that has to be paid, and it doesn't really matter who pays it.
It just irks me when property agents (who indeed sometimes ask but 4% or even less, so it pays to negociate the contract with your broker!) pretend the seller pays no costs, since their fee is added to the asking price. NO, the fee is taken out of the buyers total budget. Which in the end hurts the seller just as much.
I am indeed 'in the business' as you say. As a matter of fact, I own the 'ineffective' platform Jane used to reach the Dutch and Belgian market. Sorry we couldn't get you more contacts, Jane!
I am not an agent, because Immogo is strictly 'entre particuliers'. However, for being attacked by the FNAIM (the french property agents union) for asking a 1% success fee upon a successful sale, I've been extensively studying the French system and the Loi Hoguet that regulates the market. I won the case in a higher court, but only after losing it first and spending 10.000 euros and a year of my life fighting back. See my blog for details.
It may have been, but the percentage fee is in the contract that the vendor signs, the mandat, so how on earth can any agreement be reached with a buyer when the vendor has agreed it and it is contractually bound? The compromis de vente is not even contractual given the 'cooling off period' on signing which is when the fees would be agreed. The buyer pays the notaire, the vendor usually pays all of the diagnostics although buyers in a hurry sometimes pay in order to hurry the business along and it is most certainly for the vendor to have anything that impedes a sale out of the diagnostics put right. There are some 'dodgy' agents who even charge both, indeed we found this house through one who was 'pretending' to be with a particular agency until I talked to the vendor here and found out what she was up to in the end. Ultimately we paid nothing because she did a vanishing act.