Michelle I’m sorry you see me as a homophobe, did you read all my comments thoroughly, I’ve said enough times I was only trying to understand why ssc’s wanted to be married. Yes I used, as many have pointed out, a particular word that is commonplace in this day and age. I don’know you, and was not trying to offend you you, the way I feel you have attacked me quite viciously. I hadn’t even read any of your comments till I started writing this.
I will not answer all your comments Intended for me, given its 1.30 am inc ones where you said Sheila, except to say it’s obvious you are or were extremely angry and hostile to me. I have deliberately kept it non-personal to members here, except to draw their attention to fact I was replying to them One of the nicest gay men I first met, when I was 17 and worked in an office with him,also formed my view of why I don’t have a problem with gay people being gay, the current singular vernacular or in its plural form, whether grammatically correct or not I couldn’t give a toss! My catholic education started at the age of 5 in a boarding school and didn’t finish till I was 15’ so from 1953 onwards. I was brought up in a different Era.
How pleased I am, that Celeste, Brian and many others understood that I was just trying to understand the whys and wherefores of gays wanting ‘marriage’ given my understanding of who and the use of the word was intended for. I have an inquisitive mind, also why I asked what a married gay couple would introduce themselves as - just curiosity given the context of marriage which I grew up with not at all a homophobic question. Why did they want equality, I never argued against the referendum or said they should not have equality. Just wondered why it was so important in marriage and yes I’ve been given a lot of logical answers. Age 17 was the 1st time I was aware of homosexual
What doesn’t help with this discussion is that replies to questions or other replies, do not follow sequentially, which makes it all harder to follow.
Celeste im so pleased you understood what I trying to get at in the beginning and later on. Thank you, spot on.
if you’d concentrated on the substance more, given its now 1.30 am. the grammar and
It was never about Catholic vs Protestant Bruce. It was about money and civil rights. It was just that the protestants had all the former and the catholics had none of the latter. But it's all way too complicated to start discussing here.
Interestingly Jane any Irish citizen who's Irish parents were born before 1948, when Ireland moved from being a free state to a republic, is entitled to British citizenship. So even if you had been smuggled in you would have been entitled to a passport.
Almost Celeste, you all gave me heck of a lot to think about, that’s why I asked the question I did Peter, religion has a lot to answer for, depending on each of our ages now and what we learnt as kids. I also think Sheila’s last reply was quite thought provoking for me. Jane I apologise for my mis-use of the terminology in today’s climate, but that’s how life was then and one of the reasons my marriage was a ‘shotgun’ one, or my child might now be an Australian citizen!
- Elaine sorry I didn’t reply earlier. The like refers to yours about you also being schooled by nuns. Judging from your picture they must have been more up to date and younger than my nuns were!
Headline from Die Zeit newspaper last year: "Seit 50 Jahren ist die Rassentrennung in den USA offiziell abgeschafft, doch Schwarze bleiben benachteiligt" - I would still argue that the term is not as derogatory in German and in English.
Coming back more to the point, I agree with everything you say about rhetorical revenge. Many gay people have adopted the term "queer" in the same way. Choosing to use it about yourself is entirely different from being branded something by someone else.
To call somebody Schwarzer in German is as derogatory as in English and I would never use it, it is also not grammatically correct anyway. The fact is that if people choose to call themselves something then that is their choice which leaves you to choose for yourself, not them. Words that are used discriminatingly can also be used by those people as a form of rhetorical 'revenge' as ukip supporters referred to as 'kippers' have done recently. If gay people choose to classify themselves as being amongst 'the gays' then they will not be offended, you are but that is your take on it. Where there is prejudice it makes everything smutty at best and absolutely evil at the extreme. Human beings are a naive species and fall into the trap of hating too easily, for which there is no rationale since we have no option but to share this world whatever our differences may be. Otherwise we have the many senseless centuries of hating the other which we remember best through an event over roughly a decade in recent history now known as the Holocaust.
Yes Jane, but that is because they are also registrars - they have two hats, as it were. If they are not ministers of an 'established' religion (in the UK) and if they are priests in a country where church & state are separated like France then the bit of paper is merely a nice souvenir and not a legal document. It is only because they are also registrars that you don't also have to have a civil wedding in the UK. The marriage certificate is the same as the registrar's one, it just goes a different route.
A religious sacrament isn't a legally recognised or legally binding thing, outside canon law.
I'm not sure what you want to hear from me, Celeste. I was "attacking", if that's the word you want to use, Shirley's views, not Shirley. I have explained my standpoint as a gay woman with a civil partner and was simply challenging Shirley's opinions and beliefs expressed in her post. I've asked her a number of questions which she has the freedom to answer or not as she chooses. I thought I had put my point of view out there...
From my point of view in England? David Cameron made it a political challenge when there were more important things to be addressed, ie. at the time the banking crisis and the economy.
He took on the extreme right wing of the Tory party and we are paying the price to placate them with this Referendum.
The German language is different though, Brian. To adapt adjective and nouns in that way isn't pejorative in German. Taking my previous example, to call someone "a black" in English is derogatory, whereas "der Schwarzer/die Schwarze are the correct ways to refer to a black man or woman in German.
If your brother-in-law and his partner are happy to refer to themselves as "gays", then of course that is fine and their choice but many gay people, including myself, find it offensive to be described collectively as "the gays", particularly when used by someone expressing discriminatory views.
Excellent idea, Elaine. You've been to my village before - it's a while now since we met or indeed spoke by phone. Celeste is an hour or more further north from Lagrasse. If only I had any decent guest rooms. Groan!!!! I'm tied to the house with work Monday to Friday, but unless we have an art course running, am free most weekends.
I could get dead lazy here, and say I'm equidistant (roughly) between you two, so you should come here!!!
Shirley, My dad is called Gay (Gabriel), my middle name is Gay, so it's been used as a name until recently (haha I am not that young anymore) and we have the lovely Irish actor Gabriel Byrne.
Michelle, you got me thinking. I have never never read a headline "Straight couple married today in the lovely town of...." or "A striaght woman was charged today for speeding"
We need to just lose the word gay, as you say it's offensive as a noun. I have never considered myself "a straight" although I would consider myself straight, as opposed to gay or bisexual etc.
But now that I type the word straight, it seems ridiculous. Where did we honestly get all the branding from - are we that insecure as a species that we need to pigeon hole?
Sorry, you got me thinking. I used my voice to support equal marriage in Ireland because I cannot actually vote - I was stripped of that right by moving out. 3 people pledged to vote on my behalf which was very cool. I am so happy for Ireland because we are now one step closer to having just marriage, and not gay marriage, bi-marriage blah blah blah.
Elaine sorry I didn’t reply earlier. The like refers to yours about you also being schooled by nuns. Judging from your picture they must have been more up to date and younger than my nuns were!