I really can't understand you James.
You bang on about people lumping all travellers together and then you call your self-labelled groups of people snobs.
They aren't snobs, merely rude.
In Officers messes one of the way of judging new arrivals is by their table manners.
HKLP being code for "holds knife like pen".
For my sins, I have a degree taken in the Sixties at a traditional university and one obtained in the Eighties from a Polytechnic. I also have higher degrees. Which one was the harder? The Polytechnic, partly because I was self-funded and partly because the standard was very high (I base my judgement on being a retired teacher). My children have even more modern degrees. I do not think they have been "dumbed down", nor do I agree they are "two a penny". They do reflect, however the opening up of the system to people like myself from working class backgrounds on the one hand and the recognition that there are many more topics that can, and should, be studied at advanced, that is to say, degree level. The evolution of an educated workforce is essential for any nation to prosper and advance technologically.
Very strange the class distinctions here in France - the fawning over the local business man who earns millions - not sure how polite or educated he is though. He swans into the local bistro, people almost doff their caps and he always buys the generous round of drinks for the pompiers on 11 November - all very lord of the manor for a car salesman!
The French cowtow to wealth and status - your family origins almost seem to have nothing to do with your class. At the same time, I meet people who are proud to be called 'peasants' because working the land is an honourable profession here and those proud to be called 'ouvrier' - the workers unite! all very socialist roots
I was always disgusted to be labelled 'middle class' in England just because my mother was head of a secondary school, lived in a nice house and spoke well. I got bashed for being a snob when we moved to Somerset because of my clean accent learnt at the lap of my mother. Though she came from deeply entrenched working class - father a builder and mother working in a factory. I never felt truly at home with these fake polite reasonable middle classes and found if I fudged my accent I would be accepted in the working class homes where people shouted and laughed and swore and hugged and I felt at home.
Always remember 'les grandes madames' who worked in the boutiques in Biarritz but acted like they were graciously donating their time for a higher cause. I walked in with my baby in a pushchair and was looked at from head to toe and addressed as 'Mademoiselle' . I pulled myself up and stared right back at her and declared in my most snobby tone 'C'est Madame' at which she crumbled and started fluffing around me to help.
Now there are some very snobby women who come into where I work in Brive with a terrible attitude - I have money and will treat you like dirt - luckily I do not have to deal with them but I have heard the assistant turn around and be very short and almost rude which makes these women snap out of it and defer to them. Almost snobbery challenged is impressed!
Finally, I think class means different things to different people. Those who are proud to be working class and do not strive to be anything else despite station in life, those who are born middle class or move up into it but always feel like they could lose that distinction. Those born with the silver spoon in the mouth which teaches generations of entiltedness which cannot be learnt elsewhere. And then the French 'intellectual' class, which as someone mentioned, is not an insult.
Really - no knowledge of Edward, only Andrew from when I was in the navy but that doesn't surprise me (I did some training with the marines in Lympstone around the time when he was there and the reports weren't good!
Make no mistake about it – the class system exists in spades in France. In fact, I have come to the conclusion that they are the most snobbish and class conscious people that I have ever lived amongst (and that opinion has been arrived at after 20 years here). The thing that fooled me at the start was that it is very much understated and more subtle than, for example, in the U.K. Plus the fact that wealth does not really play a part in the average French person’s class discrimination – it is perfectly possible to look and be impoverished and still be regarded as one of the “elite”.
One of my early experiences of this was when my wife and I were on holiday and we reached our hotel (5 star as it happens) somewhat dishevelled after a long journey. The desk manager took one look at us and denied that a reservation had been made (despite the fact that I had an e-mail to prove it – he dismissed e-mails as not being valid). After some argument he reluctantly agreed to let us have what would have been a close relative to a broom cupboard, and asked for our passports. My U.K. passport at that time was one of the old hard back blue ones, and had been issued by the British Embassy in Paris. When the desk manager saw this, he mistakenly thought that I was a representative from the British Embassy itself, and immediately changed into a fawning character akin to Basil Fawlty. Magically a wonderful suite was found for us in the penthouse of the hotel – at the previously agreed room rate of course. So ended my first salient experience of the French attitude to class.
There have been lots of examples since, but it is probably made even more difficult for me to define because we live in the Pays Basque, and the Basques regard themselves as a race apart anyway (there is certainly scientific justification for this). My son recently started at one of the so-called “elite” grandes ecoles and I was invited for an introductory day and champagne reception for parents. The opulence was everywhere – clearly this is education for the rich and privileged – with all other parents dressed up to the nines except me in my casual shirt and trousers (I have long since given my suits away to Abbé Pierre anyway). Not surprisingly I was looked at as if I were the gardener or concierge that had lost his way. My son has since commented on the lack of what he calls “real” or “genuine” people there as opposed to those that continually bang on about their family connections and possessions.
I share your bewilderment about class and its definitions. There is definitely a “privileged” class (with connections) and an “aristocracy” in France – I thought that they had a revolution to do away with both – and evidence exists in subtle ways such as where they spend their holidays (Ile de Ré for example). Oddly enough, virtually all French people that I know manage to discern these classes via a plethora of unwritten (and far from obvious) rules. I think it would take a lifetime to learn them all.
my earlier comment about the man and the shitter can be applied in a snobby classist way if you want but it was intended in the more down to earth "if the bloke's a prat, he's a prat and there's nothing you can do about it!"
Good example would be Prince Andrew so no sbobbism here; he's a prat and nobody's managed to change that despite all good intentions (and yes you're going to tell me he faught in the Falklands and all that and I admire him for doing his duty, no problem with that but knowing what sort of person he was in the navy and then later seeing the public relations mess he leaves where ever he goes... he's just a bit of a prat really. Charles for that matter is another story and I admire him...shall we start anbother thread!!!
nice one Glen, I like what you say about all the people who are re-inventing themselves here ;-)
It's very unlikely that I'd tell either Ms Beckham or Ms Riding Boots anything because I don't have that sense of entitlement! And that's not a good thing either - that flight attendant could have done with someone to stick up for her. In any case, if Victoria Beckham had behaved the same way, it would not have had the same effect. It would have just been a hissy fit, lacking in the force of authority derived from centuries on the playing fields of Eton - or maybe Rodean. To be honest, I would probably have just felt slightly superior (from behind the pages of my Guardian/Liberation) because I've got BAC plus five. Everyone probably has their own brand of snobbery, which at least helps to keep life interesting ... Incidentally, my (French) husband spent hours trying to work out how to reply to a note from our local chatelain(e), a de Marsac, which addressed him as 'Cher ami' meaning 'Monsieur' was out of the question, but 'Francois' far too familiar (even though we got invited to his wedding with the rest of the village).
I do think that the notion of upper-class differs between the UK and France. In the UK it is still largely connected to having a title like lord etc. There is a big difference between what you could call "old money" and "new money". And yes, those from the first category are still very influential, even on the personal level you described with ms Dirty Boots. New money is much more the show-off type. But be honest, would you tell her or, for example, Ms Beckham to stuff her selves when this happened on your flight, brandishing a copy of the Guardian or Liberation?
In France your background, but more than that your education and career define your status in society, hence the fact that "intellectuals" can rise to unprecedented levels, thanks to the French revolution which still needs to take place in the UK. :-)
The lesson from that Daily Telegraph column might simply be to prepare yourself better when getting into a situation like that; I'd adress M le conte and his friends with "Chers amies".
Oooh I can't resist joining in a conversation like this, although I really should be working...
I think that the concept of social class is alive and well and remains one of the ways in which we define and categorize each other - often almost subconsciously. We just can't help ourselves. I know that after a few minutes of talking to another English person, according to their accent, what job they do, how much education they've got, what TV programmes, books and newspapers they read - I probably start to draw certain conclusions without even realizing I'm doing it. But, yes, with a French person, it's much harder because I haven't got the same points of reference. What makes it especially interesting, I think, is that the criteria we use for grading and classifying are probably quite personal and depend on what we most deeply value as well as the more obvious and subjective stuff like level of income, property, political stance, etc. And come to think of it political allegiance is quite confusing because you get posh (well-educated, rich) socialists and a working-class Tories. However, although I deeply agree that 'manners maketh the man' in the true sense of what constitutes a worthwhile human being - kindness, generosity, forbearance and respect for others - and they would certainly determine whether I valued a person or wanted to have anything more to do with them; they don't, at least in my understanding,define social class because they can be found at all 'levels' of society. For me, what defines social class is, I suppose, power and influence. In France and the UK (and probably in every society but these are the two I've the most experience of) there is an elite who own a huge percentage of everything and who actually decide and direct most things; and you belong to them either through inherited wealth and privilege or because you've earned your way in. That's the upper class. And the true upper class have a sense of entitlement and a whole set of ways of talking and behaving that show that you are 'one of us'.
In the UK, if you aren't born 'in' then public school education, Oxbridge, the right professional job can get you in, I think, though it's hard work. in France, I know a lot less about it, but I understand the grandes écoles have the same role as Oxbridge at home and SciencesPo can clinch it. However, for me, it is that sense of entitlement and, on some level, innate superiority, either inbred or acquired, that is one of the truest pointers of social class. On a recent Easyjet trip from Toulouse to Gatwick, for example, a woman - I'm not sure whether she was French or English - strode on to the plane at the last minute in muddy boots and jodhpurs set off with white silk shirt, huge diamond rings and pearls (presumably having left the horse on the runway?) Somehow, she managed to force a whole row of people to move to accommodate where she and her husband wanted to sit - I wasn't quite sure how she did it but there was some kind of commotion at the back of the plane from which she emerged smiling, in a steely sort of way, and in a different seat. She then commandeered the flustered the flight attendant to bring her certain thing she wanted and then subsequently quite shamelessly scrobbled extra water and biscuits from from the back of the refreshment trolley when it went past her. When the plane landed at Gatwick, she soon disappeared into the distance, the crowds seeming to part before her like the red sea, but I saw her again getting into an enormous shiny SUV people-carrier, which had been parked illegally on the coach concourse awaiting her arrival. That is where a sense of entitlement can take you, and as far as I can observe, the impossibly well-groomed Parisians you get in down here the country often seem to have a lot of it, as do the not-quite-so-well groomed London second (or third) homers who turn up in the summer.That isn't to say that 'it' can't be accompanied by kindness and decency that are more than just skin deep and isn't necessarily teamed with boorish behaviour. However, it can't be faked. And, if you don't happen to possess such a thing, it's difficult not to be envious of that profound inbred (because that's where it comes from) and unshakeable sense of your own self worth and right to whatever is going. Or is that just me?
One big difference I've noticed between in the UK and France, though, is that in France, it's OK to consider/call yourself an intellectual, whereas I think that in the UK, such a label would imply that the person is a bit affected and full of themselves. In France, trendy young philosophers get their own telly show, whereas in the UK, it's people like Jeremy Clarkson. Likewise, whereas in the UK, calling yourself a socialist sometimes seems as if its become the equivalent of admitting that you believe in fairies (socialism having been 'proved not to work') it's still quite respectable to do so in France, despite Sarkozy.
Um but that's probably a digression ... to conclude - something I read I think in a Daily Telegraph Living in France column (but I have to add that I'm totally Guardian/Liberation at heart just in case anyone gets the wrong idea) about the things that can give away your true class. Apparently addressing a group of people as Messieurs/Dames is hopelessly naff and will earn the disgust of a truly upper-class French person as in showing that you are truly NOT un d'entre nous (in case one cared). The columnist learnt this from a French count who refused to have anything more to do with his prospective daughter-in-law (subsequently dropped) after she entered the room with this salutation. Not that we'd care, of course ...
I work with a lot of folks whose names are "de" this and "de" that. There is most certainly a class system here in practice.
Mine are only at "ms" and "ps" (as from January if he's 'propre' by then!)
Yes - don't ever talk about education levels unless it's in a discussion like this otherwise it's pretty irrelevant apart from certain professional situations. as for owning a few hectares... does that make us paysans or gentlemen farmers? I've got tractor, plough, chainsaw trees down and chop wood but I'm neither really. Having done a variety of jobs, i think it's first and foremost what job you do which influences people, then there's what type of person you are/the way you speak etc which gives people more of an idea about your background, having said that people can always try and fake things... what was that series years ago with Mrs Bucket pronounced bouquet ! or those who insist on driving a bmw or mercedes yet live in a council flat - appearances could come into this argument too - does the car you drive and the clothes you wear say something to others here in France as elsewhere... I rather think so !
We even have also a "CE-2" and "GS" in our house, an argument we use when things like education levels pop up in discussions :-)
But it's true that when you yourself put too much emphasis on your assumed "class" it's very quickly viewed as snobbish; even the union-guy who insists on several occasions on how working class he is looses some of his credibility. Being member of a social class is probably important when it is one of the few things you have to construct your identity with. And vice versa, when you're a self-confident, secure (and refering to James' experience one should probably ad "civilized) person your need to be of a class might be a lot less important.
Ben, you're very modest bac +7 = doctorat = Dr Ben and Dr "Mme Ben" I doth my humble bac +4 cap ;-)
So true what you say that it depends on the way others see you and for those who think they're classless... they're not even if they don't know it everyone else is judging them and pigeon holing them!
My little family consists of 2 "Bac+7", a land-owner, a company director and 2 houses. We participate actively in local / departmental politics and social life. Which makes us bourgeoisie to in the eyes of many others, capitalists / profiteurs in the eyes of another group, farmers in the eyes of a number of Parisians (I'm the land-owner, so my wife's professional life apparently doesn't enter into their equation) etc.
Although I think that "class" is an outdated notion it still exists in France. But it is largely based on what you posses like money, houses, job-titles, degrees. Being an immigrant to this country did make a difference in the beginning, you can't be classified, you don't yet fit in somewhere. But finding your place in (local) society, getting known makes all the difference and even if you don't care yourself, other people will put you into a class.
@ James: your brother would be called a "poseur" in France and you'd be right :-)
"Common"?
Highly regarded in my view, especially as I have northern roots as well!
you can take a man out of the "shitter", but you can't take the shit out of a man - crude, but speaks volumes!
yes parents' input counts for more than education and job status - my oh and I come from different backgrounds and different cultures but are qualified to more or less the same level and do more or less the same jobs but have huge differences of opinion which can't always be put down to our different nationalities - we were bought up in two quite different class backgrounds.