Measles epidemic .. free vaccine offered to the Bordeaux students

Done this one - the problem is that as the huge benefit of vaccination is pretty much accepted by the bulk of the medical profession you would never get such a trial past a modern ethics committee.

Even if you could, you would then have great difficulty interpreting the results because the incidence of diseases which are vaccinated against in the general population is much, much lower than it would be without vaccination.

So, yes, given the low incidence of, or chance of contracting measles you might argue that, for an individual, any toxicity from the vaccination would mean that you were better off avoiding it - but you cannot extrapolate that to the conclusion that one should stop vaccinating the whole population.

These two kind-of go together.

Vaccination can cause side effects and harm - no-one is exactly claiming otherwise (the test should be whether vaccination provides an overall benefit, not whether it is totally, 100% safe in all circumstances).

Just about any adverse effect following a vaccination will be blamed on the vaccination (even more so if there is a chance of financial gain). Given the ubiquitous nature of vaccination programmes that’s probably going gto be a lot of claims, it would tie any drug company up in litigation, hence the need for this to be handled by an outside agency, not because of vaccines inherent flaws but because the benefit and harms of vaccination programmes need to be assessed over whole populations whereas the law tends to look at individual cases.

Humans are just very bad at assessing this sort of risk - we worry disproportionately about the risks of vaccination (10’s of deaths, perhaps, per annum in the US) and air travel (500 deaths worldwide in 2018) but happily get into a car and drive (over 37,000 deaths in the US in 2017). Heck even getting too involved with the police in the USA is more risky than vaccination (987 people were shot and killed by US police in 2017, most innocent bystanders, some even the individual who called the police in the first place).

They are tested and regulated in the same or similar ways to other medicines.

Nothing is completely safe 100% of the time for 100% of patients.

And debunked here and here - and not, as far as I can see asked by the Italian government to conduct research, nor were “various vaccines” tested, just one.

Again - your point is? If the incidence of measles is so low that virtually the only exposure is from vaccination it is not surprising that a large percentage of the very low number of cases will be found to be virus from the vaccine

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Apparently the Danish study found lower autism rates in vaccinated children

in response to this, and in reply to Paul’s first point in his recent response, it would be very simple to do a study of long term outcome of vaccinated versus unvaccinated - quite simply because there are many unvaccinated children out there - not just those unvaccinated through choice, but those unvaccinated for other medical reasons, or for religous reasons - the Amish for example. A retrospective study could be carried out which would not require approval of an ethics committee.
I remain convinced that the reluctance for the ‘mainstream medical establishment’ to perform such a study is that they fear the resulting outcome.

Yes, a retrospective study could be carried out - but such studies are only hypothesis generating, not provative.

so if you look at the Amish for example, I am led to believe that their incidence of Autism is practically zero. The amish do not vaccinate. Perhaps this is not ‘provative’ as you say Paul, but I put it to you that it would be a very blinkered person who refuses to consider that there may be a link - and that it is worthy of further investigation.

So, the Amish are renowned for their rejection of all things modern - including a lot of modern medicine. Do you not think that the low incidence of Autism could be due to significant under-reporting?

In fact the Amish are a very poor choice for a retrospective study - you would want to pick two groups as similar as possible apart from vaccination or not - and the Amish just are not very similar to other groups.

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like I said, a retrospective study would be simple and quick to do whether with the Amish or any other unvaccinated group.
So why not do it?
I think we can guess why.

Because it would be a waste of time?

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you are welcome to your conclusion Paul.

But it is not just my conclusion but the conclusion of just about the whole of the scientific community.

Yes, you would counter that’s because we are all blinkered and refuse to see facts.

Ultimately though - it is for the anti-vac crowd to support and fund such a study, it is not the job of conventional medics to go out and prove your case for you. But you need it to be scientifically and statistically rigorous - which is where anti-vac “research” normally falls flat on its face and why it is mostly ignored, it’s just such low quality work.

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Perhaps you should take your point of view to the mothers of children who have suffered from the severe effects of measles.
I don’ t think that they would be as polite as the contributors here.

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nor perhaps would those mothers of vaccine injured children either.

here is a recent letter Paul from ‘Physicians for Informed Concent’ to the state legislators in California promoting the view that infomed free choice should be the way forward - not mandating vaccines. It is based on scientific studies and reaches conclusions. Iguess you are simply going to say that their findings are based on the ‘wrong kind of scientific evidence’ and that the studies conducted by the ‘establishment organisations’ and ofter covertly funded by industry are the only ones with credibility.
As I cannot carry out the reasearch myself, for me the old adage ‘follow the money’ is very helpful in deciding which conclusions to trust and which to question.

sorry, I could not attach the document . It is a letter of March 27 from the PIC to the California state legislators refering to SB-276.
I will try to find a way of attaching it
regards
geoff

thanks Chris. I am not computer illiterate but with such little spare time I could not easilly see how to attactch the pdf. Thanks for doing so - but although off topic, for future reference, please tell me how
;

If you click on the link you will have the option to copy it. Then you can just paste it into your own reply.

Might not work for antivaxxers though…:wink:

thanks Chris. No, it may not work, but at least I have the free right to choose whether or not to use it.
:wink: