Never at home

The anthro stuff is hard to find, mostly articles in jounals and if I sent my publication list from the CV you would fall asleep. I am due to finish a book this year but when that will appear is another question. 2013 I guess. There is a book a few years old that I edited with two others: 'Beyond Article 12 Essential Readings in children’s participation' by Henk van Beers, Brian Milne and Antonella Invernizzi in 2006, it is on the publisher's site http://www.knowingchildren.org/reading.php

Amazon, Chapitre or whoever might have used copies a bit cheaper. It is a selection of other people's work though.

If you really must see something where I did most of the fieldwork with Vietnamese colleagues and two colleagues (actually for one of the ones above, although he actually did none of the actual work himself in 2004) then 'Creating and enabling environment' which you can download entirely on:

http://seap.savethechildren.se/upload/scs/SEAP/publication/publication%20pdf/child%20participation/Creating%20an%20enabling%20environment.pdf

If it does not work, just search using the title and you'll get the site and download.

The rest I shall spare you...

b.

Thanks Dave. Cognivity and that realm are known to me, naturally, but I am a social anthropologist so work from observation of the world about me in terms of such human needs and qualities as belief, culture, tradition, economic value, belonging (kinship is important) and how a society relates to and within itself and to others. Not much space for something as specific as cognitive behaviour, that's for social psychologists. However, when I write academically I also try to do so in language that can be understood by all people.

Dear Emily

Maybe the best thing to do would be to take some time out to go to England where you can think over the future

Anna you made a very important point (several really) but the one I am picking up on is the point about 'getting away with it'' Many people suffer and wish they were treated differently but there is much evidence out there to say that bad behaviour will get worse if not checked - no boundaries given. Sometimes you have to say very clearly - enough, I will not be bullied, abused etc and sometimes even using the words will shock the perpetrator into thinking about it, when 'framed' in that way. One of the surgeons I mentioned in my other post, that I discussed awful behaviour with at length, said that he and others got on a rant about something and needed 'pulling up' sometimes. It wasn't really in my nature but I calmly did so and in meetings on a couple of occasions and the behaviour of some changed dramatically. I remember once calmly acknowledging that a particular consultant surgeon was indeed the head of the department and as such should be respected but that he was also a rude, abusive bully - to the stunned silence of the room (I was thinking P45 p45) but he never abused me or my staff again and a new respect for standing up to him materialized. a Line had been drawn, all I did was said what many other people were thinking.

Je suis complétement d'accord Lynda !! It would be a shame to waste years and years in a dead-end situation. The question to ask is where does Emily see herself in 2 or 3 or 5 years' time.....? The solution will come sooner than one thinks ....... and the pattern will be broken .

Hey Emilie

I do agree with you - after many years of domestic strife and bliss with own FH - that some of all this IS cultural. My sister is also in similar situation to yours; she's currently a stay-at-home wife and mother with two small children, aged 3 and 6, and married to a workaholic Italian research scientist - and he has been known to do the martyred 'I'm going to tidy the house properly and vaccum all the carpets at midnight because you're so a hopelessly inadequate and disorganized ( a domestic slut)' routine, too. I'd shut him in the cellar ... Except of course I couldn't/wouldn't any more than she can and apart from moments of spectacular awfulness, he has many redeeming features. But. One thing really burns in my brain though, and that is the remark that a friend made about her own husband's awful domestic tyranny. On the up side, this really was a case of true and long-term reformed behaviour after he had driven her to leaving him . He promised to reform if she would come back, and he really did. I asked her if he had any explanation for being such a horrendous control-freak and all-round bastard and she said 'I suppose he thought he could get away with it.' I don't know if that helps, but it has always stuck with me. And - after many years struggle - there are certain zero tolerance zones that I've managed to create with my own FH .., most of the time anyway. But you know the retired couple - the gendarme and Huguette characters in the Scenes de Ménage sketches on M6 - they never make me laugh. My husband says its French humour, but I can't help seeing some un-evolved and and nastily misogynistic corner of the French psyche.

The other thing is the self esteem idea.I've had huge problems with that too. I think there was some sort of vestigal Protestant ethic about it being self indulgent and half-baked. You hear the term so much in the context of sort of wishy-washy self-help contexts that I kind of associated it with dodgy popular psychology as fundamentally unsound. But then I found being the main provider and organizer, being a mother (of only one!) and trying holding down a stressful job in publishing where I felt I had to prove myself all the time had me on my knees. I was so busy trying to sort everything out and look after everyone that I kind of totally lost sight of me - I literally truly forgot what I used to like doing or be interested in, what I was even actually like as a person. But when this happens you end up as a kind of negative space, a human black hole, which is terrible for you AND just as bad for all those people who you love and are trying to look after. You HAVE to nurture and cherish and be proud of yourself just to stay viable. It's the same principle as during aircraft safety demonstrations when they tell parents of young children and babies to in the event of the emergency put their own oxygen masks on first and only then to help the children. So, you are right and all right and (please forgive me for going all new-agey, but I am a yoga teacher in training) actually the Divine Feminine incarnate on earth as well, so NO silly man throwing his weight around, can ever truly put you down or get you down - even if he can do open-heart surgery. Where would he be without you? For a start probably minus loo paper, light bulbs, toothpaste, bin bags, surrounded by under-dressed children (show me a man - even one who's been in the forces and is a gourmet cook - who knows how to put tights on a two-year-old) distraught from all that 'negative encouragement'. If it all gets too much, leave him to stew in his own juice for a few days if necessary, just as a reminder.

Just one last thing - something that happened when I was child in the 70s (early days of feminism - I was shocked to find out recently that in the UK, a woman couldn't take out a mortgage in her own name until 1976, not so long ago, eh?). There was a couple - the man was a nuclear scientist, the woman a stay-at-home housewife and they had three or four sons. The woman was a devoted wife and mother, looked after everyone, did all the cooking, shopping, washing, cleaning, etc. in their largish house and garden (and anyone whose ever done anything along those lines can imagine what extremely hard work this must have been), but the husband and sons fell into the habit (the sons imitating the husband) of talking to the wife/mother in a particular patronizing tone, making asides all the time about how scatty and not very bright she was, making her the butt of jokes and putting her down in public, etc. The family were friends of my uncle and aunt's and although this was done in a light-hearted, bantering way, my uncle picked up on it and it sometimes made him a bit uncomfortable, but the woman herself seemed to be used to it and to take it in her stride, paying any attention. That is until the day when she just waded out into the sea with stones in her pockets until the water closed over head. The husband and sons were totally shocked and almost mad with grief, but it was too late.

Lots of love and empowerment

Anna xx (NB since this is a public forum and I don't want to unnecessarily offend all the nice men out there, I would apply the same principal to the Divine Light in chaps as well - the point is about bullying/silly bugger behaviour which of course both sexes can be guilty of, but - if you are the one stuck in a foreign country with no or very little independent means, the balance of power can feel heavily weighted against you.)

You're welcome. I am not getting our bid done though. See you later Emily, Dave et al!

A little is often more than enough. Without my bonce swelling any more, I was one of the European pioneers in participatory work with children's organisations in Peru in the 1980s and have gone the whole gamut to the point that my very academic work is about children's citizenship which includes them as our equals. OK, there has to be differentiation to a point since the absurdity of a two year old replacing Sarko may appeal humourously but in practice does not work in real life. Seeing a little is often a seed of a question that a child can let grow inside him or herself in the wrong direction. So openness counts a lot and clear explanation. Sheltering children is also at times a formula for messing them up when they grow up to be 'like' us.

My children are extreme examples. The older is in CLIS with big difficulties because that is how she is but OK she is now bilingual. The younger one went from no French and new to top group and fluent in two terms, has a reading age of 12 in two languages (she is 8!) and goes, for instance, through an entire Harry Potter book in less than a week. She helps teachers who are struggling with English in class. So she is integrated because she is just like that, but remains an outsider who questions everything. So to beat them all she is learning Italian from mama and German from me toute suite... If we had the slightest difficulty we would have to be geniuses to hide anything from her, but both in reality. They notice mood changes and sense arguments and because we all talk on a one to one basis have to have very convincing explanations when they ask. Both advise us on how to cool things and once when we grown ups had a good shout at each other they tried to send us off to two separate rooms in all seriousness, which we do not do to them but our parent generation did to us!

What children think they know is driven by their ability to learn fast and they observe without appearing to look or see amidst us. So they often know more than we give them credit for. The bird's eye view is wider than we often think. Bear much of that in mind and work on things with her, no matter how 'yours' or grown up they seem to you. They are her's too in truth. Also, accept (as we do with all of this supposed knowledge) that as parents we probably fumble about in the dark much of the time and get so much wrong that if we reviewed it we would be shocked. Just allow yourself to do that BUT also let your children in on life as it is and hide nothing or one day you will find there is no gratitude due for having done so.

Best of luck, even for people who do it as pros it is never easy. Look after yourself.

brian

Hello again Emily

I have been reading about your unfortunate situation since you began posting and have been trying to think of a tactful way to tell you how I feel about it.First I think everyone here should realize that what you are going through has nothing to do with France.It is rather a situation that is common any time any one decides for whatever reason to relocate and finds it difficult to adjust to different customs etc. I know as I have done it many times.You must realize that you are in their country and it is up to the newcomer to adjust just as it would be normal for a guest in your home to comply with your way of doing things.Also I know for sure that if a french person decided to settle in an Englih or Irish town they would also be the objects of much speculation.I have gotten over this by finally admitting that i am and always will be (despite my dual nationality now) an American and therefore find it so much easier not having to live up to their expectations!.(on another subject you need household help!Your husband is able to see to it that you have a "femme de ménage" and someone to help with the kids so you have some personal time..my daughter and daughter-in-law have help and a lady to do the ironing and a "jeune fille to help with the kids..no one can do it all alone!

this being said i know what a trying time this is but some how after reading so many posts i do have a feeling that this is just going around in circles;You will never be able to change this man who seems abusive in every way...he did actually slap you and every day his puting you down is eroding your will power and self esteem.You must also see that this will eventually wear off on the children who may start to see you through their father's eyes as they grow up.This happens often when they understand where their best interest lies(this is natural and is not a reflection on the children).Emily if i knew you I would sit you down and ask you what kind of future you want.If you think you have the strength to continue and wrestle with these problems for years so be it.I feel however that you and your children would be better served if you stopped trying to please your husband ,his mother ,his friends and as I see it even your own mother and started to think of yourself...everyone will be better off for it.I would advise you again to seek legal advice from a lawyer (there are many who specialize in interational law) or your notaire and your assisstante sociale.These people's job is to help.I had to do it and once the decision to seek help is made,once you have spoken to a qualified person you will see that your life will take on a new shape and you will be able to plan a future based on real options.I know I do go on and on but I feel very concerned.I can only hope you find a way to make your life better and as the french say:bon courage,vous meritez tout ce qu'il y a de mieux!

Emily, a while back you said that one of your young said you should use English to strengthen your expressiveness (my interpretation there) which means that you also have to look at your children who can see what is going on about them. As somebody who is an 'expert' on children's participation in civil society I have learned to see and understand that they are just growing and learning 'us' and we should be far more reflective on their part of everyday life. I think you need to have a serious talk with them as equals (hard shot for me to call, but try because it works) to get their angle. If what they see is not what you would expect it to be then think hard about what it helps you to do and whatever that is you absolutely must involve them 100%.

By the way, because you are 2/3 of my age, my view is that you are still young and looking at it from the wrong direction as we all tend to. I do not yet feel old but all about me are convinced I am (except my children and my OH who thinks I am stretching childhood a bit far into life).

You must be amazing to be looking after 3 children, two of them so young, and still be up for fighting back! There are a couple of things about responsibility which spring to mind, firstly, its your husband's problem if HE feels ashamed of anything, not yours. Decide what really are your responsibilities, and take them on board, and not anybody elses.

keep cheery and keep going!

Danuta

Hi Emily

There is no way I could start to write as eloquently as the other contributors so I won't even attempt it. I do agree with a lot that is being said though.

My wife is French and when we came back to France, she is the one finding it difficult to find work. She is also the one feeling guilty about me working full time while she is at home. OK, our kids are grown up and in UNI but I still think it's a full time job looking after a grown up family, especially me!! There is absolutely no way I would even consider persecuting her because she doesn't work. On the contrary, I am more than pleased to go home to a clean house, have clean clothes and a meal each evening. However, was she to find a job, I would be over the moon for her and would ease the burden at home. (By the way, I already cook on weekends). Sorry, I went on a bit there didn't I.

On a sadder note I just hope you have a back up plan, because it sounds like eventually you are going to need it.

Sorry.

Stu

and we follow. lol. I got the "maybe one day we can move to Ireland, after retirement and everything"... when, in fact that was the original plan, but we just sort of "ended up" in France, even thought I was dead against it. I have to say, it has turned around, and I am happy here now. I want to stay in this town, but OH wants a move, but I'm standing my ground this time round.

The whole "being French, I know where the best place to live is" thing is gone out the window with me. The national pastime of "being right" is more deeply embedded into some than others.

We speak English in the house, and when together, and, people started to question this, and one day, OH "decrees" that we should speak French from now on. Blunt refusal, every time, and I'm still working on it.

Total agreement from me Andrew.

Emily, English is your strength and perhaps his lesser so. Therefore, to have some advantage, always speak English. Also, stand tough and tell him you will leave him and file for divorce in which he will suffer financial loss. Ask him if he really wants that. Men, me included, sometimes are too dense to see the gravity of what they are doing and it's negative implications. You have to smack us on the head to get our attention focused. However, be prepared to follow through because if he doesn't change with that, he will never change. He will only get worse.

Emily, I have read only 3 of the numerous pages so far....... and I have to agree with Sarah. My heart goes out to you, so young and it seems so unhappy and alone here in France. I too am a foreigner, a Namibian, and I'm quite happy to always be regarded as different and foreign. As an EU citizen you have the right to work, WHEN that door opens and the time is right, (I had to wait for 5 years to gain that right). DO you really believe that things would change in your husband's mind once you get a job ? If he's always been the way he is, why do you think he'll change ? The fact that you're prepared to openly talk about your life and unhappiness to strangers here on this forum, says a lot ...... don't wait too long to break the pattern. Here's some food for thought " You can't reach for anything new if your hands are still full of yesterday's junk". I hope your husband's negativity doesn't stop you from enjoying living in this country.

Maybe it's the area you live in. I'm feeling very welcome, and at home in my town, the only trouble I get is for driving a 75 registered car, and over the holidays, people tell me go home to Paris. lol.

I think that a lot of people make other peoples' business THEIR problem. let them, is what I do. If your husband is talking to you like this, he obviously is not very supportive, although, it's common for a Frenchman to be "embarassed" about his wife for one reason or another, and, it probably comes down to jokes being thrown about by his colleagues,or friends that he has taken to heart.

I just wonder what he would say if you told him you ARE ready to jump into something new, but it involves moving to another area, and want to know if he is ready to support you, or not. Many Fr/non FR couples I know, (including myself), mean that the French half calls all the shots when it comes to where to live, what to drive, where to holiday/work, etc.

He's taking the opportunity to bully you when you least need it , your children are more important as they should be and possibly he's jealous who knows but definately insecure .Please don't let him spoil this time with your children . Was he nice before the ring went on ? I guess he was . Does he say about your friends they are a waste of space etc and try distancing you from friends and family trying to isolate you ? If so it sounds like he's trying to contol you . I don't believe for a minute that people say as much as he makes out .. it just suits him that you feel bad about yourself .

Please put you and your children first

Take care

Go for it. But many working French women have full time help. One more thing about the French: many of them believe in motivating people via negativity - no positive reinforcement. They are compassionate but do not always show that compassion. So they often appear relentlessly demanding, slave-drivers. I am just not wired this way, but I have learned to embrace conflict and use it (though I have a long way to go).

Also: if he has a volatile personality, and you are living in fear of an outburst, perhaps he needs to understand that even if you agree about having high expectations, the way he expresses himself is unacceptable. Make that clear to him, and if he starts, walk away, leave the room, go for a walk. Being disrespectful and bullying instead of clear, rational communication, is unacceptable no matter what your rank!

I agree with Andrew: any kind of "abuse," moral, physical or emotional, is universal. I was married to a "pervers narcissique" and for YEARS believed the onus was on me. Then we moved to France and, thankfully, seeing him in the midst of his countrymen/women - my neighbors, colleagues, friends - all the frustrations and intuitions I had harbored over the years were validated.

My parents ('45 and '48), after I guiltily made it known I was getting out of this marriage, said they "saw it coming," several of my own siblings owned up to the fact that they couldn't stand him, but they didn't want to say anything because they didn't want to be negative, didn't want to "be the bearer of bad tidings." Per my mom: when you get married, you're stuck! Per my mother in law ('32) with her volatile, narcissistic husband, "je m'écrase. Pense aux petits enfants ma chérie!" But my parents, true to their steadfast Irish roots, also told me to stick with the first job I found out of college - a dead end clerical job - because it had good health insurance! My parents taught me patience, steadiness, to keep my head down when need be, but if I had always listened to my parents, I would not have chosen the risky but potentially more rewarding options that one encounters in life, including breaking up a marriage.

Emily, you also mention making others in your circle unhappy by your actions. This is excruciating. Any decision that involves change and is imposed upon others is usually not welcomed. I was convinced that my kids would be better off, and I have been right. My true friends have stayed with me, and certain members of my in-law family as well.

It took too long for me to act. I fell into the comfortable role of being the victim. Does your husband realize how deeply he affects you? What would make him realize that - and change, if that is possible?