Never at home

General Discussion
81

Hello Emily - I applaud you for posting in this forum, to let off steam and also to not get isolated on your own with the little ones and a painful personal situation. Changing countries always has challenges, even if someone moves for independent professional reason. Moving for love, giving up a safe home and professional identity and independent income, having 2 babies in quick succession without the kind of support you want from your husband and without good friends close by is a lot to deal with day by day. I say that because there is so much adapting and shape shifting you have gone through at the same time as mothering 2 little ones, which is physically very demanding just for a start.

As a veteran of a number of country/culture changes I support your willingness to do your best to have the marriage work - and at the same time, to watch out for your well-being. I will send you my email/skype - lets have a chat Emily and in the meantime, receive a big hug and plenty of energy to support you towards creating 2012 in a way that works well for you - on all levels.

82

Dear Emily,

I have been reading your posts and am trying to come up with an answer that would be both comforting and helpful.I will start by saying that I can relate about not feeling "at home".I left the states when I was 12 and grew up in Geneva and Paris ,lived in Viet Nam for 6 tears and then in a small French town and now am in another.I speak french of course(having gone through the system baccalaureate etc...) and have three children.And it is true,your life experinces have made you different and you will be different even if you go back to England. No matter what you do you will never be French....and why would you want to ? (Friends of my Mother in law used to say that they liked me but could just not understand why in the world JC married an AMERICAINE !) The only place I really felt at home was in VN because everyone was a foreigner! For some reason the french would like to believe that they are truly God's creatures,but they are not sure and are desparately trying to make it true! However I do feel that most people in every country react in much the same way...In my experience everyone is wary about that which is even slightly different.As I said why would you want to be any one else? If your husband had wanted une petite française he should have married one.He didn't ,so in some way he was ready to stand out. I think he has a problem;I understand he comes from a humble background so he still isn't sure of "ce qui se fait et ce qui ne se fait pas" And if his mother wanders around your house in her apron worrying about the kitchen cupboards,she most likely suffers from the same insecurities....I was lucky in that my husband did put his foot down with his mother in my defense (we did end up divorced 25 years later but being french wasn't his problem...He was his own problem!) Also you say he is a surgeon? Why in the world would he ever expect you to do the housework,care for the children ,make fabulous meals and be cute ,smart and sexy? In his profession you should have a daily cleaner and at least a parttime child minder in France these outward signs do count. And you are supposed to work outside as well? He sounds like a poor provider or he is cheap which is not a good quality.

Do you live in or near a big city? I ask this because it seems to me you need some sound advice,legal advice. Your husband seems guilty of a form of abuse that is now more and more recognized in France that is deep psychological abuse. You are in a situation that you will never overcome because there is no way you can become perfect. His mother has become his ally and is probably responsible .What is his relationship with his father?.

Please Emily get advice.If you should divorce you need to be protected as do your children.You said that your french is good so you should go to your Mairie or your doctor (however if your husband is a surgeon that might not be such a good idea if you live in a small town)and find out when and where you can see an "assistante sociale".Your situation goes way beyond France and the French or being a foreigner.You are being pushed around and made to feel worthless:this is abuse only it doesn't show.Please,there is nothing wrong with you,you are not a whiner or an "incapable".Your situation sounds serious and unfair .Please see a lawyer and the assistante sociale.

I hope this has been of some use to you.Everyone here seems to want the best for you.Take care and I sincerely wish you all the best in what will hopefully be a happier New Year.

83

Hey Emilie!

Lots of good advice here. Just wanted to send you love and encouragement up from the South-West. I've been with my French husband for nearly 18 years now - met him when I was very young - and I totally and utterly empathize and agree with so much of what you have to say to with uptight, narrow-minded, chauvinist, bigoted, superiority-complexed (if you can say that) bloody FROGS! I've practically left twice .. but somehow I'm still here, we're still together and (after 12 years in the UK) we're back living in France again. I don't have time to write much because I'm the one who earns the cash, but courage! Where would the world be if it were full of French bourgeois ladies never breathing out or eating anything and stressing about their soufflés (I don't have a mother-in-law, but you should meet my sister-in-law). I'm sure your husband doesn't really want you to be a clone of these, not in his heart. It sounds as though he's struggling with some complexes and worries of his own and is projecting them on to you. Not that his whole attitude and behaviour isn't indefensible, but, as Annette says, stay in touch with the essential YOU and don't doubt it. Looking after two young children is a full-time job - how can you be expected to start a business? But, I know from my own experience that it can be boring and stressful and if you are intelligent, educated person used to some kind of professional activity drive you a bit bonkers even though you love them more than anything. I came to the same conclusions as you about the association idea and am in the process of setting one up (in my case for teaching yoga). An English friend of mine is doing really well with hers that she started nearly two years ago which is drawing lessons and art therapy. I do think its the way forward if you want to do something because you can start up in a modest way and see what happens. I started replying to the post yesterday but never finished because the other way I earn our living is as freelance editor and writer and so I'm always racing a deadline. The great thing is the associations are a recognized, French way of doing things so that makes whatever you're trying to do more acceptable - there's something familiar there. One of my personal theories for the reasons why the English seem to be so less insular than the French (despite us coming from and island and them not) is our shameful colonial past. We have been used to the idea that people come in different colours, have different ideas and different ways of doing things for a whole longer than our friends here ... And if that sounds patronizing in turn, well, they drove me to it!

Anyway, courage, courage and lots of love. You CAN do it (whenever you decide what it is you really want to do). And if FH (French Husband) is being impossible, leave him alone for a week with the children - book yourself in for some really expensive thalassotherapie treatment like a real French bourgeois lady - and see how he copes.

Anna xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

84

It probably says something about you too, Emily, when you seem to find MILD physical abuse acceptable. No physical abuse,or mental abuse, is acceptable. Is it that you are afraid of the unknown, i.e. Life now on your own, with just your kids. I read somewhere that, in the UK, abused wives accept, on average, 35 cases of abuse before they do anything. He’s not suddenly going to become Mr Nice Guy, whatever you hope for.
The fact that you’ve felt the need to bare your soul on here also says how far it’s really gone. We all feel more than helpless for you, and I know it’s a cliche, but, only you can change things.

85

Hi Emily !

Firstly let me say how very sorry I am to read about your predicament - it is totally unacceptable for your husband to treat you in this manner. I agree with several posters who have said it seems as if it is his way of dealint with his own insecurity - it makes him feel superior to bully you - I know, my first husband was the same - he would come home, run his finger along the mantelpiece and declare I must have been sitting down all day drinking coffee as there was dust - he would even move the sofa to look behind it !!!!

After this, I was on my own bringing up my daughter for 14 years - very hard up, but the best years of my life ! When she had grown up and finished Uni, I met someone else and moved to a Spanish island - at first, although he was a bit of a control freak, he was ok - but since we moved to France he has changed - he is now a total bully - but he reckoned without me - I used to cry and get upset at the way he treated me, but then I had a lightbulb moment on day - I am a person in my own right, I am entitled to enjoy my life my own way - I will not stand for it - and so I changed the way I reacted to him - he still tries to control me, bully me, etc but when he tries to start an argument I simply get up and walk out - he criticises me if I as much as buy myself some underwear - so now I simply buy my clothes, household goods I want, I even just bought myself a 10th anniversary present, and some ear rings for Christmas (I even had them gift wrapped !!) He chose to ignore out anniversary, and so I went out for a really nice lunch on my own !! We did call a truce for Christmas day, but it only last ed the day !!

I now have secondary cancer in the liver (just had a third op in Bordeaux - which seems to have worked, it was a new experimental treatment, so I am crossing my fingers !) but according to my husband there is nothing wrong with me and he expects me to go to the dechetterie with the garden rubbish just the same, despite having a 20 inch scar across my abdomen !! - I have to say that now, also, he is losing his memory due to age (I am 64 - he is 79 in February) - and repeats everything ten times ! He never fails to tell me how wonderful his first wife was, and how I will never come anywhere near her perfection !! - I just ignore him - I know for a fact he has always been the same - his daughter, his late mother and his sister told me about him and how selfish he was and has always been ! With hindsight, I should have stayed on my own - but I am tenacious, and I will not give up .....

Meanwhile, do you have any friends here - either French, English, or whatever ? It seems to me that you need a support network - if you went to work, presumably your children would have to go to Maternelle ? - hard for them and you, but you may find some friends that way - does your Marie know of any charity/organisation that needs help ? - not earning, but working - what do the wives of your husband's colleagues do that makes him feel you are so inferior ? You could get a group together to learn English (suppose you would need some TEFL qualification ? ) - I know it is very difficult for anyone, be they whatever nationality, at the moment, to find jobs in France - don't know if you live in a City or a rural area ? The Elizabeth Finn organisation and Cancer Support France are always looking for volunteers - but no use if you want to earn a salary - is there anything you could set up on the internet by way of your business ? Difficult times sadly, to start anything up - but market research might tell you what is needed - you don't even have to tell your husband you are doing it - just do it quietly and surprise him with your enterprise - trouble is, he sounds as if he may be the kind of person who would try to put you down if you did this.

I don't understand why you would be left with nothing - you say your husband insisted in putting your property into only his sole name - this is not right ! You need to see a notaire about this - you are his legal wife, the mother of French children, etc - and he must provide for you if you/he leaves the marriage. Although the property we owned in Spain was solely in my husband's name, I sold my house in the UK, which was mine and fully paid for - to move, and so I insisted that we put the property into joint names. Not possible in Spain, but when we moved to France, (he doesn't understand French) - the Notaire asked us to sign that the monies for our new property had been provided jointly, I explained this to him (somewhat !) so we both signed to put the property into joint ownership. We changed our marital regime also - which changes the property ownership if there is a dispute. Sadly my daughter (who is 31) had decided for the past three years that she no longer wishes to communicate with me, and we are currently looking at ways to disinherit her from the French inheritance laws - even if it involves moving - if we both live that long !!! My husband is going into hospital in Bordeaux soon to have a carotid artery op - as both are blocked, so we don't know what 2012 holds - life is uncertain at the moment !

But - and am sending you a hug - you MUST not put up with his bullying - easier said than done, and I should know - if he becomes physically violent again, you must call the authorities and have him arrested - whatever you may think of the consequences - it might jolt him into the knowledge that his behaviour is unacceptable - especially for a man whose profession is not open to displays of anger. I had a wonderful surgeon in Bordeaux who had a terrific sense of humour - but there again, I don't know what he is like at home - it sounds as if your husband needs professional help but whether he would willingly seek it is debatable.

Bon courage !

86

Hi Emily, I'm not going to be of much help, but I just wanted to say that I've been there too, and I know exactly how you feel. However, for me that was all of 30 years ago, and I would have thought that attitudes would have changed by now.. obviously (it's France) not yet .. I was always compared to his perfect sisters ! Looking back I actually think I was too sensitive (my Scottishness), and maybe if I'd just turned a blind eye, and stood strong, our marriage just might have succeeded. I decided to stay in France to make things easier for the kids, and much prefer being a 'partner' to a French man than a 'wife'. Two things though .. those 'people' making remarks are probably just very jealous (and are of the nasty sort that would be delighted if your marriage broke up !). .. and be proud of who you are, and DON'T try and be more 'French'. Good luck. Maggie X

87

It seems so sad that you have had to post this on the first day of the new year when in fact you should be looking forward to a good future. I might not be able to put things so eloquently as some of your replies but the bottom line I think is that your French husband needs a good kick up the a---- and a lesson in how to treat a lady .

Good luck for the future,Colin

88

Just be yourself Emily and try to rise above the hurtful, idiotic, comments. Seems to me that you have loads on your plate and are coping quite well...

Loads of hugs

Simon

89

Without wanting to go too far down the psychology route there is another layer to this. People who feel insecure in their own skin and feel threatened by a partner who may be intelligent successful etc etc will seek to undermine the threat. By chipping away at your strengths and 'minimising' your triumphs, the perpetrator is convincing him/her self that your are inferior and boosting their superiority by default. This behaviour is not restricted to those of lesser intellect and is frequently seen in people who should know better. I used to work with a number of surgeons and although not restricted to surgeons by any means, I saw this behaviour time and time again and though there were notable exceptions, I have never worked with such a pompous group of people, full of their own self importance. I don't know if the French system for training consultants is different to the English way, but I know that it is instilled in to them to trust no-one and nobody but nobody could possibly hold any level of superiority anywhere close to them. Many go on to hold this belief very dear in both professional and personal lives. I agree that the time and effort it takes to attain that level is huge but that does not excuse anyone from being devoid of compassion when dealing with others. I am sorry that there are no easy answers but beware of the long term effects of this treatment, after years of derision and being undermined I have seen people become a shell of their former selves questioning their ability to even dress themselves. To redress the balance a little, I would also like to say that I remain good friends with several of the surgeons I worked with - the ones who are not prepared to become that person and have the ability and insight to turn that critical analysis of others on themselves- in short lovely people. I wish you all the strength and courage in the world.

90

Emily, I am shocked at your husband's idea that giving full time care to children under two is not a full time job. Children need 100% attention when they are young and can learn an immense amount at a very early age if they are taught. I know kids who are 3 years old and reading better than some adults. They are like sponges absorbing knowledge so it's a great opportunity to be with them to teach them as much as possible. Not only that, if the French thing themselves as cultured, it doesn't show it when a French husband to degrade his wife, his partner, the mother of his children. He should treasure the wonderful woman he has and tell the world to go to hell. They don't pay the bills so they have no say in the world he and you live in. Fortunately, I haven't had any French treat us with distain. On the contrary, we have many French friends, some who hold director level positions in French companies. I am American and my wife is Brazilian and we both speak French with an accent of course but no one seems to mind. Tell your husband he's no man unless he defends his wife. That's just my humble opinion.

91

So your reputation was destroyed by 6 baby milk tins? That sounds laughable but it's not - I too am an appalling house keeper apparently because I keep a mop and bucket in the bathroom. That too is not allowed - they should always be kept outside, which would be great but my only outside place is the roof which is 3 storeys up. Imagine, every time Shaun or I finish splashing about in the shower, I'd have to leg it up 3 flights of stairs to get the mop - get real. So you have been condemned because of the milk tins? All I can say is bol***ks to whoever has a problem with it. It's not their house, they should keep their mouths shut.

I know it's difficult, but as far as that marriage contract is concerned, I simply wouldn't have signed it. Yes, it may have ended your relationship or caused major arguments which you didn't want because you love your husband, but where has it left you now? No wonder your husband can swan around treating you almost like a skivvy - he thinks he's in such a powerful position you have no option but to kow-tow to him. If he has any respect for you whatsoever, he would defend you, not join the critics. And are these critics friends of yours or simply his friends? I wouldn't give them the time of day. You need to grow a very hard skin and say "This is me, either accept me for who I am or p**s off". You have far more important things to worry about such as looking after your littluns and finding your niche in the workplace to be worrying about people who think reducing others to tears is a sport. Sorry if this sounds a bit tough (as I know it can when it's written) but I think you have been worn down little by little, both by the morons who comment on your housekeeping skills and by your husband who seems to be walking all over you. You have to make a stand and decide what you want out of life before you have no strength left to see it through. xx

92

I am so sorry you are having this problem, I was married to a very traditional Frenchman for 25 years (until he died) despite him being a frenchman of the old school he was loving, caring and very supportive - we did live in the Uk so this may have made a difference. He helped with our daughter, encouraged me to join clubs, do part-time work if I wanted and was always complimentary about me in front of his friends. He would never have allowed anyone to make disparaging remarks about me.

If you are unable to change things then do not leave it too long, as it is easier to make a fresh start when you are still young.

Very best wishes for whatever you decide.

93

Hello Emily

First of all a virtual hug for you ((((((((((((((Emily)))))))))))))) Emily, I really really do feel for you, I dont know where you live in France, however I so understand how hard it is for you living here with a french husband, they are soooo into their traditions of what a wife should be and do aren't they, in a way I am lucky as I met my french husband in England and lived there a while before coming to France, however I will say that when we did come to France I was amazed at the sudden change in his new "macho" way of life, there have been many many arguments and rows between us and once it was because I too had left some baby stuff on the chimney shelf in the kitchen !!!!!! Ohhhhh how I got put down that day

Emily, in France there are many opportunities for people like us, who speak both French and English its sometimes being in the right place at the right time or simply chatting with people on SFN to find out what type of jobs other people do do, you need to be really assertive with your man (whom I agree is not young, and at his age should know better than to treat you like this)

Maybe we could all help you by letting you know the different jobs that we do and see if there are no possibilities in the area that you live in

I think going out to work would help you an awful lot, even if its only to get away from M Macho for a while :-)

I work for a printing company here in Cannes whereby my job is to provide a printing service for International clients who come to Cannes for the markets, it works a treat as the international clients dont have to print in their country and then ship to France. If there is a palais des congress who deals with International salons not far from you, this may be a good opportunity for you to contact a local printer and offer your bi lingual services, if there is a palais des congress, and if they do international salons, I will be onlky too happy to help and advise you :-)

That is my job, lets hope that our other colleagues come up with some ideas also for you :-)

I send you my best thoughts and be positive, one day you will look back and say "gotcha" dont need you now !!!!!!

Hugs Anne Marie

94

Oh Emily, like everyone else here, ideally feel for you and am sending you a virtual hug.

I know how you feel, though. I am definitely an integrated outsider. I have been here a year now but will always be known as La Galloise to my workmates and Tata Galles to my bf’s family. This doesn’t bother me, though, as it’s what and who I am. Wales is in my blood and I am proud to shout it from the rooftops, and so far most people have been interested in the differences in UK culture as most are only taught about England. Indeed, they don’t even realize there are 4 nations in. The UK. I also know these names are said lovingly rather thanks a nasty remark on my culture and heritage, and that if it really bothered me they would stop.

I am also lucky to work in a very multi-cultural societé (Disney). The French here are used to working with foreigners and even having foreigners in a position of authority. However, there are certain who take it upon themselves to correct your every word. I don’t let this bother me though because I know that if the tables were turned, and they had to speak in English, their level wouldn’t be early as good as my French.

This isn’t the first time I’ve lived and worked in France but it is the first timei’ve lived with a Frenchman as my partner (I’ve already lived with others but it’s different when you’re not trying to be part of their family). Sometimes. It’s hard but the main difficulty comes from the fact that my bf has never lived abroad. He’s never had to deal with cultural changes. It also doesn’t help that I’m highly emotional sometimes and the smallest thing about France can set me off, especially if I’m missing my family, such as at Christmas. Most of the time he understands and does his best to console me and cheer me up. But sometimes it turns into a huge argument. We always manage to work it out though and see that it was over something silly. However, we don’t have children and so I know that if I really wanted to leave, I have no responsibilities holding me here, just emotions.

The bf and I also work together and I know that if anyone is bad-mouthing me, he is the first to jump in and protect me. It’s already happened several times. He is not ashamed that I am not French, in fact quite the opposite. Although sometimes I have to keep reminding him of this fact when he expects certain things that are just beyond my cultural understanding.

If your oh is like my bf, and has never lived abroad, then he is never going to understand how much you have to put up with. You need to lay it all out for him. Raising children is a full time job. Tell him that if he would like to swap, then you’re willing to give it a go. I bet he’ll jump at the chance (!). You need to explain to him how you’re really feeling. Marriage is about honesty and you need to tell him that this is the woman he married and that you’re not going to change just to suit him. If he’s a real man, he’ll see what he could lose and change his ways. If not, then you need to ask yourself what you’d really be losing if you left.

Bon courage!

95

I agree with Kitty. This has notting to do with the French or their culture. It happens all over the world. I was going to tell you that I am not a marraige consler and I should not tell you what to do. However between the mental abuse and last years phycical event, I just became a marriage consler. Dump him!

96

Hi Emily

Sorry to hear you are so unhappy, but just remember life is not a dress rehearsal !!! and its never to late to change your life, so if you are as unhappy as you say get out now and start a new life!!!

Good luck

Carolyn

97

Oh yes and get some anti-depressants from the doc to boost you while you start your new life and business if you need them (which would be perfectly normal). But honestly, again, get out and get a proper life.

98

This is nothing to do with france or culture, its to do with your husband being horrible to you. I had a similar relationship with my ex, in the UK, and thank god it ended and I found a proper man and a happy life (here in france). Nobody should ever be allowed to abuse anybody the way you are being abused, dump him and get on with your life, in france or anywhere else, you are clearly getting nothing positive from your relationship and you are being used as an emotional punch bag by a weak and disrespectful man. Get out now, you deserve a real man who will build you up not knock you down. seriously, get out.

all my support for you and always here to listen.

Kitty

99

Emily,this life isn’t a practice. You only get one go at it. Is it worth wasting any more of it on a man who makes you feel so s#%t about yourself? Move on. Plenty more fish in the sea, and it sounds as though you would even be happier alone.if you don’t make a move, you’ll get dragged further and further down. I love my wife because I know she is strong enough to blow me out if I treated her with anything less than respect.
Wish I could give you a hug too.

100

dear Emily....pack your bags and GO.I have been married to two french men and my first husband came from a frightful lyonnais bourgeois family who from the start showed me how inferior I was and incapable of bringing up our son.Ok I was only 20 when he was born but we couldn't afford our own flat and lived with my in-laws in their large appartment bld st germain in Paris and hated every minute until I decided to leave but of course I lost gardianship of my son who ended up being brought up by his grand parents but I regained my sanity.I couldn't go back to the u.k. as I had ,after the divorce ,my son every other week end.I then remarried had 3 more children BUT when I married again I hardly ever saw my new in-laws as my husband never had much contact with his parents .He sees his mother now every month on his own. I can tell you now that after my first experience I won't take any more shit from the french.When they start going on about the english this and the english that bla bla bla I just tell them to p..s off