New satellite, loss of channels

Hi Al

I am presuming that you know where I bought my satellite dish from as we have a mutual friend. Before I purchased the dish I sent an email to the company to see if their dish was as good as a Triax dish because I had noticed that the dB was 41.76, the same as the Triax. This company also sold Triax dishes. This is the reply that they sent me:-

"No, our dish is not as good as triax dishes, our is better, very much better.. ;-))
That's true.
the mount of our dish is bigger than a mount of a triax dish, and the mount is very important for durability and directivity of an antenna.
you can place this wallmount for this dish:"

Based on that reply we decided to purchase their 130cm dish and actually it was only just under 40 euros cheaper than the 130cm Triax would have been, certainly not half the price.

They could have got more money out of me if they had recommended that I purchase the Triax dish from them?

When our satellite installers saw the dish they said that it was exactly the same as the Triax dishes that they had been selling and installing.

It was also our installers that said we would be ok with a 130cm dish?

I take people at their word, maybe I shouldn't?

I did try that on the older sky box I followed your, I think they were your, instructions but didn't get any where at all.

If life stays stable I may consider a better box, Humax perhaps, but for the moment all is well so I am leaving well alone. We don't watch a lot of BBC, ITV etc. at the moment, it goes in phases. If we lose signal when strictly starts up in the autumn I may panic . However to counteract that I have purchased a long enough HDMI cable to feed the pooter to the TV and have used that to catch up on missed stuff.

Nice to hear from you Clare. As I've tried to explain recently the crude meters on any receiver don't really tell you the whole story and, in particular, don't give any real indication of how close you are to the point at which picture breakup will occur. A prof meter can give that information.I believe you have an old SKY box in which case your meters are telling you about the SKY default transponder which is on the European beam and therefore very strong.You need to go into the hidden installer menu and input the details of the transponder you want to look at in order to get a meaningful reading .Newer SKY boxes do not have this limitation..

All is well again at the Gers/Landes border now. We've got all channels back, including all HD, maybe with a bit less rain margin than we had before (judging by the signal quality bar).

For anyone who is interested in having an internet-based back-up plan (which might be handy when the rain returns), this is where I'm at:

- I've cancelled my order for the Chromecast since discovering that they can't work in conjunction with VPN or an IP-masking service like Media Hint.

- I've now ordered a WiDi receiver for my telly - I've gone for a Netgear PTV3000 "Push TV". What is it? If you have a WiDi-capable laptop, you can send 1080p video directly from it to the WiDi device which is plugged in to your HD telly. So, if you have BBC iPlayer, ITV Player, 4od, Netflix etc. working on your laptop it's a solution. Obviously, you need a decent broadband connection. I understand that you can also use these receivers to push video from your Android device using Miracast. It should arrive by the end of next week, so I'll update with my experience here, just in case it's of interest to anyone.

As you haven't heard from me here I am. I am still reading the thread. Sat wise we went a bit pixalated for 3 or 4 days dispite still having readings of 90 and 80 on the sky box, and now everything is Ok again. So I am trying the wait and see technique

Al, You make all my points for me, but at the same time give the impression that you disagree, which is what confuses me! I have always said that dishes should be aligned by someone with a professional meter who KNOWS WHAT THEY ARE DOING...otherwise we know the likely result.. reception on a fine day but not when it rains etc etc... I have tried to explain why that is so.I have asked Peter S to ask his installer to tell him what C/N ratio is achieved and I wait to see if he does,and if so what the result is. I have suggested the method of inserting cardboard sheets between dish & LNB as a simple NON TECHNICAL way of seeing if you have any protection against the effects of rain because I do understand that the average person doesn't have the necessary knowledge to know whether their installer is competent or not..and obviously they don't have suitable meters themselves.

Your LNB comment is not correct; 0.1dB is NOT a measure of S/N, it is the noise factor which is a measure of how much noise is added to the signal, which is not the same thing.The signal entering the LNB already has noise added to it,which has been picked up by the dish,The LNB adds a small amount (eg 0.1-0.7 dB ) which DECREASES the S/N of the signal by that amount.You measure the S/N of the signal(+noise) not the device ! You measure the S/N at the output of the LNB and nothing you can do after that point can improve it in any way.The LNB also adds jitter because the oscillator frequencies are not stable and this jitter is another type of noise (phase noise). Professional LNBs use a much more stable type of oscillator (PLL), than virtually all domestic LNBs, which adds much less noise & jitter to the signal, and this type of oscillator is used in the Octagon LNB which I continue to recommend as I have seen the improvement which it gives and is the reason I bought it in the first place, when I have other perfectly good LNBS which work with my syatem in France.It will though be used in Mallorca where there is a reception problem during inclement weather. I fully expect an improvement, but until I try it, I won't of course be 100% sure.

You are quite correct in saying that in areas where signal strength is good and dish sizes adequate, one LNB may appear to perform as well as another, and I have never said otherwise, but that is not he point at all. It's exactly when signal levels are low and dishes too small that the LNB can have a significant effect THAT IS MY WHOLE POINT! and why would anybody bother using yet alone designing external feedhorns if there were no improvement possible ?

Without knowing the exact circumstances of a particular installation I would never ever say to anyone that you such and such a size of dish, my responses if any would have to be based on technical facts because this is,like it or not, a technical subject and there are no magic solutions, the laws of physics cannot be changed...

Sorry that we often appear to be talking at cross purposes whilst at the same basically in agreement on many things...

Hi Paul,

I have actually been following the thread since day 1,so have probably read every post.I do also read posts on other forums on the "Anglo info" sites. Unfortunately I would think that the majority of people posting are doing so because they have reception problems,and they don't necessarily come back if they have managed to solve their problem. I'm probably one of a very few posters who has never had any problem ! We haven't heard from Claire who started this thread, for some time so I guess she may have solved her problem and she did post details of her dish a while ago.Most people who post don't provide sufficient information about their installation to enable any kind of meaningful feedback but the symptoms usually described mean it's reasonably safe to assume that those systems are generally operating on the edge of the so called "digital cliff",the point at which the receiver is unable to lock onto and decode the signal because of the presence of too much "noise" Because not all transponders reach the receiver at the same amplitude, different transponders will drop out at different times creating the apparent random loss of some channels but not others, which baffles the average person but is completely normal under the circumstances. There are 2 major causes..1) an inadequate system eg dish too small / LNB not performing well and 2) dish/LNB not sufficiently well aligned or, most likely,a combination of both..

I've said before several times that it is very difficult if not impossible to accurately align a dish in a region of low signal strength without the use of a professional meter which can measure the amount of noise in the signal (carrier to noise ratio).I have suggested a simple way , however in which you can get a good idea of how your dish will perform when signal levels fall, such as during heavy rain, and that is to insert sheets of cardboard between the dish face and LNB and see how many you can insert before you lose your picture. In my experiment I was able to insert 6 sheets of thick corrugated cardboard before picture breakup occurred on a BBC HD transponder.This transponder was used because, for technical reasons, the BBC HD & ITV HD transponders will be the first to go. Anyone who can receive SD channels but not HD, has a system which is teetering on the edge and the smallest drop in signal levels will result in loss of some or all SD channels.

If can tell us your actual location, type of dish and its dimensions and exactly how the alignment was carried out it might be possible to help further. It's also become apparent to me that the actual location of the dish can have a subtle effect because of the amount of unwanted noise the dish itself might be picking up, eg is it high up on a chimney or low down against a wall. I recently re-located my dish by no more than 10 metres,after experimenting with 3 different LNBs and was unable to achieve quite the same result as I had earlier, just an hour later .I recently read an article suggesting that the optimum location for a dish would be in a trench dug in the ground such that the top of the dish would be below ground level and the trench would run in the direction of the satellite thus providing protection from unwanted noise reaching the dish. I have no reason to doubt that this could be tru,e but haven't tried it needless to say!

Actually I am fully aware of s/n ratios what I am saying is that a lot of people aren't and they have no way of measuring it and if they could they wouldn't understand what they were looking at.

What I am saying is that you need to keep it simple so people can understand. Not everyone knows what you mean by S or Q meter either; it is far too technical for them. What I was also trying to get over was that people just want it to work.

I had a guy visit today who has just got back from the UK as he winters there and summers here. When he went in November most of his channels were working (no C5 etc) now nothing works. He spoke to a friend of a friend who was an "approved Sky installer" allegedly living in France who told him it was because everything had changed and he needs to point his 110cm dish at Hotbird 19.2 deg which he had spent the last four days trying to do with no success. Was he a reputable fully registered in France installer with SIRET number and insurance, no, was the answer. Had he thought that if this was true every single house with satellite TV in the UK, of which there are millions would need their dishes moved as well? Then you saw the penny drop.

But in fairness if you put yourself in his shoes which may be similar to some forum member’s shoes and somebody told you he was an “approved Sky Installer” you would do as he says.

That is just the more recent BS story I have heard and believe me there are loads of them around which is why I keep banging on about using a properly registered installer because if it all goes T**'s up you can go to the Chamber de Metiers and report them and get some form of satisfaction be it financial or otherwise.

The old days of roughly pointing a dish in the right direction have long gone I am afraid and you do need professionals now to install your dish and get it aligned properly.

The other thing that concerns me is that people who are not technically minded get the wrong idea from technical answers because they don’t understand then rush out and buy whatever only to find that does not work either. If they went to a proper installer in the first place they could have saved a lot of money and grief.

With LNB’s these days most claim to have a s/n of 0.1db so if that is correct then they should all be the same yet you and I know they aren’t. People who don’t understand that this figure really means nothing unless you test it yourself because the figure is found by testing in a laboratory and not every LNB will be exactly the same, especially the cheap ones.

My point on LNB’s is that if you were living in the UK then the LNB you use (to a degree) would make no difference. In SW and SE France it will make a difference but far more importantly the size of the dish is the overriding factor. If I put up a 2.3M dish in my garden basically any old LNB would probably work but what I really want is the ‘right’ sized dish and the right LNB to go with it. If I have not got the right sized dish then it does not matter what LNB I put on it, it will not work. I wouldn’t like to see people buying two or three different LNB’s because they had been led to believe that with the right one everything will work perfectly for ever come rain or shine because it won’t.

Hi Michael

Having put together my dish heads and cables together from scratch, and not being an expert, I was curious to know if i'd picked a 'reasonable' quality LNB. Hence i appreciate your techy opinion...

Like most am presently having problems with reception in the South West of France - curiously after 08.15in the morning.

I dont know if you have followed all of this thread (its too late for me to trawl through the 68 pages now!!) but do you know what has been the most south westerly position reporting uniterrupted Freesat reception? has there been anyone out there?

Hi Al,

Your reply is a bit strange to me; you appear to want to argue about things on which we agree but much of what I have written appears, unfortunately to have gone completely over your head. I have been doing my best to provide meaningful information based on my interest in the subject and my background as a professional broadcast engineer. I have no reception problems myself, and I 'm not here to regurgitate other peoples opinions.it does irritate me to see so many myths and misconceptions continually flying around and "installers" are a major source of such misinformation.Your last story perhaps illustrates the problem ..someone who was "told" that a certain size of dish would "work"..how gullible can one be ? and to think that aligning a dish using the virtually useless meters on any receiver rather than a professional meter,shows that he was completely lacking in the necessary basic knowledge which I have been trying to provide.

You appear to be in denial about the vital importance of carrier to noise ratio. At the end of the day it is the only measurement which matters..there is no way of predicting how your system will perform when signal levels fall, or noise increases if you don't know what the C/N ratio is. The S meter in a receiver simply measures the amount of signal + noise which is reaching the input of the receiver..there is no way of knowing how much noise is contained within the overall signal by using the S meter. It's a tribute to the rugged nature of digital that the threshold at which picture breakup starts to occur is around 7dB for an HD transponder ie there is almost as much noise as signal .The only way to ensure reliable reception is to increase the signal relative to the noise and the only way to do that is by increasing dish/size and/or by attention to the type of LNB and its alignment relative to the dish..Professional LNBs have significantly better performance, but like most professional broadcast equipment is very expensive..If ,as you seem to think, all LNBs are the same, why do you think professional broadcasters would bother to buy expensive LNBs. The Q meter in a receiver simply measures Bit Error Rate and it is quite easy to get this parameter to zero or 100% on the meter but again this does not tell you anything about the amount of noise in the signal. If you install a dish for satellite internet you will find that the only measurement provided which used to align the dish is carrier (signal) to noise ratio. My sat internet system operates at a S/N ratio of 13dB and just like TV sat reception the system will stop working when S/N falls to about 7-8 dB. C/N, S/N is fundamental to ALL telecommunications systems.All such systems are designed in order to a achieve a specific S/N ratio because it's the only thing which matters at the end of the day. You can believe it or not as you wish.I remain willing to help solve your reception problems and those of others..

Yes Al, ignore this. I lost the plot for a moment. Just checked my facture online and it's at zero, just a silly app on my phone that sent me a warning that I mis-interpreted due to panic about last months high bill.

Have to say we are on Orange and my wife downloads loads of stuff in very big files every month, far more than any normal person. She alone must download 10 to 15gb of data and we have never hit any limits or been charged extra. I was therefore wondering if you are talking about downloading via phone network like 4G which I believe has limits depending on what you pay. Just curious is all.

This explains why I've already surpassed my "enormous" limit with Orange. Previously only used less than 2 of my 6 Gb allowance so changed my tariff to a more economical one. Now I'm receiving alerts that I'm over limit, so false economy move. The only difference is that we've watched Filmon for the last month.
Oh expletive.

The Astra 2G launch was resedualled to September some time ago because of the backlog of launches after the launches where stopped due to the rockets blowing up. Now we have rockets blowing up again so there wil be a longer delay. They have a lot of satellites waiting to launch before they get to Astra 2G and everyone has to take their turn. The 'rumour' about American components has already been sorted and Astra 2G is not affected. The satellite that they lost on the 15th is the same Eurostar E3000 platform as Astra 2G but for somebody else.

Now back to our problems. Everything I have read on professional sites and everything in between says the same thing, size is everything. As I have repeatedly said I am no expert but when you see 20 people saying one thing and somebody else implies that it is not the case I am afraid I am more likely to believe the 20.

The rest now is for everyone and not aimed at any one person.

Most of the people on this website just want their UK TV. They don’t understand any of the technical terms being used. It is a bit like somebody who wants to send an email, they don’t know or care how it works they just want to type it and press ‘Sent’ and the other person can read it.

As far as an LNB is concerned people can find out themselves which is better by looking around the Internet and there are particular LNB’s that have been reviewed. The Black Ultras come out very well and even better the Ivacom LNB’s. The Black Ultras seem to have a good reputation for long cables from the LNB to the decoder and on short distances there is little difference between the two except the price. The Ivacom on the other hand has a good s/n ratio over a large temperature range which is quite important in SW and SE France as most figures are given at a specific temperature in a laboratory which does not reflect real life.

The bottom line however if you are in a situation where only a specific LNB gives you good reception then you are clearly back to size of dish because most LNB’s should work without much of a problem.

There are two types of dish Prime Focus and Off Set. As an example for explanation if you wanted a 130cm dish either will be sold to you as a 130cm dish and it will state that on the box. The difference is that a Prime focus dish will be 130cm exactly in diameter and the LNB will be in the centre of the dish. An offset dish will not be a perfect circle it will be something like 124 x 134 cm this is because the LNB is at an angle to the dish so the dish needs to be oval to make it look like a 130cm circle as viewed by the LNB.

My dish was sold as a Gibertini 150cm offset dish when in actual fact it is oval and measures 155 x 166cm. As far as the LNB is concerned it looks like a 150cm circular dish.

With s/n ratios or levels you have to be careful because not all is what it seems, you have to look at the frequency at which it is tested and that varies between different makes and sizes of dish so you need to select like for like i.e. the same frequencies. What I have noticed is that in general they all seem to be around 45db to 48db gain. There are some cheaper ones like “Label WS” which only gives 41db but then they are half the price of the rest so you ‘pays your money’ etc as they say.

As I said earlier all this is way beyond the capabilities of most of the people here. They just want something that works (as do I).

I personally had only an HD problem where most round my area lost everything. This could have been caused by several things but at the end of the day losing HD is no great problem for me. The problem would have been if I had lost everything like the others. I suspect that if I want perfection I will need to get a bigger dish where as those that lost it all will defiantly need a bigger dish.

Then there is the finance of it all. Great if you are ‘loaded’ but if you don’t have a fat wallet and bottomless pockets you could spend a lot of money buying different LNB’s and even feedhorns like my mate has done, money that could have been better used to buy a bigger dish which would have fixed his problem.

I have always said from the very beginning that you should go to a properly registered (SIRET number and insured) installer. You should tell them what you want (working and stable UK TV) and tell them you want to make sure it works for at least 6 weeks before you hand over any money. If it does not work properly then you don’t pay until he fixes it and of course you want a 1 year guarantee in writing. Whatever you do make sure you get a Devis that way you don't pay extra if he needs to change things to get it right. If the installer is a good one he won’t argue with those terms because he knows what he is doing and will install the right dish size etc. Yes initially it may cost more than trying to do it yourself but in the long run it could save you a fortune and you benefit from the guarantee on the dish, LNB, cable and labour. So if it works for thre months then it rains and you lose yout TV picture it is down to him and should not cost you any more money.

A quick story before I go. I know of an English chap who was told that the 130cm dish would work in his area. He put his own up and aligned it using a compass and inline meter. To fine tune it he took his Humax box and small telly up on the roof and adjusted the dish for best signal and quality. He saw that on the Internet the 130cm dishes were selling fast and many companies had run out. He found a company that had six in stock so he bought the lot paying cash thinking there was a golden opportunity to make a bit of money selling and installing them for fellow Brits.

I learnt from my mate that this chap had called him because after five weeks of installing his dish he also had lost all his TV channels (just like everyone else) and was worried because he had paid cash for the dishes and if they didn’t work he had nobody to sell them to and of course the company has refused to take them back.

Sorry for the length of post.

Hi Paul, Smart Titanium LNBs have always had a good reputation,so I don't have anything to say against them .I do actually have a quad version, but it's on a 1.2m dish in Mallorca so,as I'm currently in France I can't compare it with the Octagon for example. I expect to be able to do that next time I'm in Mallorca and expecting & hoping that the Octagon is better with that particular dish..I was able to receive Astra 2F last time I was there which was before the 2E launch, but not very well when it rained...Did you have a particular reason for asking ?

Hi Michael, What do you think of the Smart Titanium Twin 0.1db universal? Any good or to avoid? (about €20)

Hi Al,

The launch you refer to wasn't carrying 2G but perhaps that's not what you meant.My understanding is that 2G was supposed to be launched next month but, because of US sanctions against Russia over the Ukraine situation, some US supplied equipment, required for the 2G launch, may not be supplied...

Whilst certainly agreeing with the premise "bigger is better" where dishes are concerned,it's worth repeating that it's the GAIN of the dish which matters.Dish gain increases with increasing frequency but ironically 2E & 2F FTA transponders are the lowest frequencies...perhaps intentionally ! Also dish size should be quoted using the width rather than the height, or ideally both dimensions, otherwise comparisons between dishes becomes fairly meaningless. The LNB and also the sat transmitting dish "sees" the domestic offset dish as a circle whose diameter equals the width of the dish and the amount of signal collected is proportional to the area of that circle. Fibre glass dishes are considered to be the best in terms of gain because their profile is very accurately defined whereas aluminium dishes are easily warped,and otherwise easily deformed leading to all kinds of problems.

Al, Is 1.5m the width or height of your dish and do you know it's gain ? Are you able to get a measurement of the carrier to noise ratio C/N of your system when tuned to a BBC HD transponder..I would be really interested to know that figure (my guess is not much above 7-8 dB) ...Assuming your dish is aligned to maximise C/N, that measurement could be used to roughly calculate what size (gain) dish you would need in order to get a certain degree of protection against signal reduction due to rain etc...

Finally,everybody, don't forget that the LNB becomes more important the lower your received signal strength becomes. I have measured 3 different LNBs recently and obtained a spread of C/N ratio of 4dB which is a massive difference, equating to a significant increase in dish size. The winner,as I've mentioned before , was the German made Octagon Optima with PLL oscillators previously only used in very expensive professional LNBs... 20 € will buy a quad or quattro version ,€ 35 an octo version.There is not, so far, a c120 flange version ( for feedhorn). At least one user has reported that it performed significantly better than his Inverto black ,but I don't have one of those to compare with.

Definition of streaming: "to transfer or transmit (data) in such a way that it is processed in a steady and continuous stream".. basically transferring data and therefore technically little different to downloading, surfing etc SAT TV is also "streaming" since a continuous stream of data is being transmitted, more so because streaming via the internet is not normally continuous and most people experience stuttering etc because the data is buffered ie it is put intoa temporary storage buffer as it arrives in packets and then read out of the buffer hopefully but not always at a continuous rate...

How do you think your ISP would be able to distinguish between downloading data and watching a film...It's the same process, data is being downloaded when you are surfing reading e-mails..whatever you are doing,when online..HD quality by definition has to be compromised..SAT TV HD can reach data rates of up to typically 15 Megabits per second and still the quality we see is still less than in the broadcasters facility where 1080i data moves at 1.485 Gigabits per second,and is then highly compressed before transmission to the satellite... For internet, far more compression has to be applied.

Obviously its your choice although SAT TV is not "lost" in S France;you just need an adequate receiving system, meaning a large enough dish, a good LNB and accurate alignment by someone with a professional meter who knows what they're doing...

Whatever you're doing downloading or streaming your using your ISP's bandwidth so as far as your ISP is concerned data is being sent to your device. They are not interested ion what you are doing with the data i.e. saving it or watching it live.

If you use BBC IPlayer in the UK you can load some software from the BBC and save programs to your device to watch outside the UK. However the number of programs you can download via IPlayer is small and they 'self destruct' after a certain period (30 days I think). Sky uses a similar system. It is so you can take your favorites away on holiday with you.