France / UK DTT: Para 2: Pensions and other similar remuneration paid by, or out of funds created by, a Contracting State or a local authority thereof, or, in the case of France, a statutory body, to an individual in respect of services rendered to that State, authority or statutory body shall be taxable only in that State.
So in April can I / should I include my NHS pension from France arrival in UK split tax return, and declare it as worldwide income taxable to the UK with the local impot? As I understand it the France offices are local and hence follow their ‘own’ understandings - and would HMRC say unprompted, no we are not going to collect tax on your NHS pension…
Reading the guidance in the link carefully Graham, it does say “If you are dealing with a claim or application for exemption from UK tax in respect of any pension …” Presumably I would only be claiming an exemption if either a) I wanted to or b) the France impot taxed the pension?
And presumably if it was decided the pension tax rights were attributed in error, well, the tax authorities are not ogres!
It’s late… and I am now confused by your post …
so please forgive me if this is grandmother/sucking eggs …
For General info… for those reading the thread…
For Tax (and social charges) France needs to know what one has gained in the year Jan-Dec… that’s worldwide income.
France then makes “allowances” (age etc) and decides, after these deductions, what if anything is to be charged to the Declarant.
In the past, France has taken into its calculations… any tax paid in UK… and if it was less than France would impose… then the Declarant would have to pay that bit more…
However, if the French calculation came to less than the UK… ie France reckoned one had paid too much tax in UK…
then, sorry, that’s up to the Declarant to sort out with UK… France would neither charge/nor refund.
Seems reasonable enough to me…
My remark about the French Tax Clerks, comes from Legislation which allows for one honest mistake…
Of course, Legislation also jumps on anyone found to be deliberately falsifying/dodging/whatever… ah, then its the Guillotine…
How can you have an NHS pension from France? and why would you wish to declare it to the UK
I can’t see the significance of that either…
Where you are taxed on what is regarded as a UK Govt pension is set out in the double taxation treaty inter alia and is the province of the UK Govt’s agency, HMRC.
Be that as it may Nigel, there are clearly instances where some NHS pensions are regarded by HMRC as Govt pensions and thus taxable in the UK.
How they make such a decision is not in my knowledge, nor do I care tbh. It will remain one of life’s rich tapestries of mysteries.
I don’t recall where I read the reference and I have no wish to pursue the issue. The final arbiter in this is - and must be - HMRC surely. What must be avoided is paying tax in the UK and paying tax on the same income in France beyond what is required in accordance with the double taxation treaty.
@graham [quote=“larkswood12, post:22, topic:33544”]
So in April can I / should I include my NHS pension from France
[/quote]
How can you have an NHS pension from France? and why would you wish to declare it to the UK
Apologies I was being very brief with my words, I meant:
should I include my NHS pension from [the time of my] France arrival in [my] UK split tax return, and declare it as worldwide income taxable to the UK with the local impot?
You see, I had thought it would be France taxable (from the link I posted). And I’ve just checked, the pension payer shows as NHS PENSIONS PAYMASTER 1836 LTD in my on-line UK tax account. However, your post that you don’t think it is as easy as the link provided just made me start double checking and floating ideas.
That’s why I was curious as to @Wendy_Cooper-Wolfe post when she mentioned her NHS pension is taxed in the UK. Had hers also been paid by NHS pensions paymaster then I’d be wanting to check my understanding further (with the caveat of course that individual tax matters are of course personal).
Also many thanks to @DrMark for the HMRC phone number and tip.
I would most definitely second @DrMarkH 's suggestion of ringing HMRC. They do nothing automatically as far as I have experienced and you need to get hold of that they call a “technician” which actually means someone who knows UK tax law and not the usual greeters who man the help desk and just point you to websites. However, I would say that my partner’s recent experience (of trying to stop paying tax in the UK and start in France) involved discovering an experienced and helpful person answering the phone immediately at HMRC and the questions was dealt with quickly and efficiently.
apologies if I was a bit blunt @larkswood12 but I didn’t have a good day health wise and was somewhat unable to decode your question adequately.
I think you have it now; the complication arises because the two countries have different fiscal years. Provided you start as you mean to go on, selecting the payments received in the months Jan to Dec from the payments made by the UK in April to the following April is quite acceptable. That’s what I do. In the first year, you only need advise the receipts from the date you became resident in France so UK Pension payments prior to that date wouldn’t need to be declared to France (unless someone knows differently).
Have you completed the France form individual which notifies the UK tax authorities that you are now a tax resident in France?
No probs Graham. Hope you’re feeling better today. Yes, I’ll be making the first France declaration for the month of December 2020, when we arrived. I haven’t done the France form individual yet, to tell the truth I’m still battling to get my cross border worker portable healthcare certificate (cf ducks not quacking thread). I’ve been told from HMRC newcastle two have now been sent (plus a different letter) but none of the three have arrived . (yet)
IIRC, unless things have changed of late, you will need your first tax return in to France so that you can get a tax reference which has to go on the France Form Individual form which is stamped by your local French impot and goes to HMRC as an acknowledgement of your French tax status, so there is time yet. I think it is still the case that the first return has to be a paper one, after which you can declare on line (which is usually a doddle).
Yes, feeling a lot better today thanks (so not barking at people so much )
