We are interested in a house, but when we enquired about it, the agent informed us that the pool and some other structures (pool house, gym and garage) on the property are undeclared and cannot be made legal (regularizé). Assume this is due to all of it being too close to the neighboring property. At the same time, both her and the notary are saying that we cannot be penalized for it as everything is older than 10 years. We’re not French and don’t know the system that well, so we’re wondering:
What is the general sentiment in cases like this? Stay as far away as possible? Or is it more of a «nobody does everything right and I can’t be penalized for it anyways»?
Where should/could we go to fully understand the implications of this? If we understand it correctly, there are zoning, tax and insurance implications in addition to potential issues with future building permits if we would like to do other work on the property.
Whether those structures are compliant with the various regulations or nor, you are required to enter the full details of your property in the “Bien Immobilier” section of your Impôts and you better believe your Taxes Foncières (property taxes) will be adjusted upwards accordingly.
In French property matters, several different regimes overlap:
urbanisme / planning issues,
civil law issues, especially with neighbors,
tax issues,
construction issues (leaking pool / subsidence)
insurance issues,
future permit issues.
A time limit in one area does not erase problems in the others.
Don’t necessarily run away, but approach with extreme caution, a specialized lawyer, YOUR OWN notaire if you go as far as making an offer, and make a very, very low offer as it is a massive deterrent for anyone who wants to sleep at night.
That said, I once bought a former hotel that had been converted into a dwelling, and the tax office knew nothing about it. My taxe foncière doubled.
Hello, I recommend that you check with your notary and, at the same time, call the tax authorities to ask them about this and demonstrate your good faith. This is not necessarily a deal-breaker !
We bought an old but renovated farmhouse with an inredibly low tax fonciere when we came to France.
We installed a modest pool using the usual déclaration de traveaux. When completed, the tax fonciere went up astronomicaly. Feeling a bit miffed I demanded an explanation.
They explained that for tax purpose our house was listed as uninhabitable so, as we had installed a pool, they had moved us up to the habitable level. I declined their very kind offer of a full examination to determine the correct taxation level.
Hmm.. from the word go you know there is something undeclared about the property… which makes me twitchy about the whole deal.. but that’s just me.
Why not go the the local Mairie and discuss the property with them. Tell them what you have been told about the pool etc etc and ask for their advice. Is it really OK now that 10 years has gone by??
(I reckon they’ll be looking to grab back-dated taxes on the Owners at the very least.)
Please do consider asking.. I know that people contact my own Mairie with all sorts of queries about land and property which they are interested in buying around here… although, I must say, yours does sound a little more “peculiar” than most.
One thing to be clear on… before committing yourself, you really do need to know the exact legal position.
This would not be the first property which has had to be demolished/put back to original… because it was illegally built/installed/whatever.. and financial costs/fines/whatever can be rather expensive too.
and what financial liabilities for the new owner.. how much will the property taxes rise etc etc.
Best to get the legal situation verified by the Mairie/Prefecture or whatever it takes, so you know exactly what you might be taking on.
Seriously, I would not simply accept what the Agent/Notaire say.
You don’t know the why’s and wherefore’s… you are just guessing.
Too close might adversely affect foundations, drainage, fire-safety, security, noise-nuisance and all sorts of stuff not only for you but for the neighbours.
Best to find out the true situation at the Mairie.
and my last contribution:
As these works were not Authorised, they have not been the subject of all the safety/ conformity checks throughout, building standards etc etc which are part and parcel of the Planning Application/Approval system.
You have been warned… what you choose to do is up to you.
I had always understood that, unlike the UK, France doesn’t have a point where work becomes retroactively permissible. If you’ve got a bergerie or piggery that was built in some indeterminate period in the past that is falling down and not been used in decades, or extra windows put in 50 years ago by who knows who, but hasn’t ever been declared to the powers that be and they discover it, they could ask you to regularise the situation. Whether they’d ever bother is another thing of course, but everything I’ve always been told is there is no automatic retrospective permission due to length of time. At the very least you’ll be asked to declare it, and presumably if you do via the planning process (DP, PC etc), it can then be refused by the authorities.
But I don’t have citations to back this up so take it as hearsay.
Yes and these days the authorities use satellite surveillance and drones to spy on suspect properties. My son found a nice house for sale last summer but upon asking about the pool and age etc,the owner actually confessed the pool had not been authorised, he never went back for a second viewing as trouble would be around the corner eventually! Now I believe the fisc are charging/going to charge for all in ground pools by the m3 of water in them so the minimum plunge pools will no longer be exempt from foncières.
Thanks everyone for all the helpful replies! Amazed at the traction this got in the heat. I can see that the consensus is definitely leaning towards this being a big deal and something we need to make sure that we understand fully.
Mairie will be our first port of call. Seems like it would also be beneficial to talk to a lawyer or another kind of expert. Would architects/builders be knowledgeable in matters like these? Or do we basically need to talk to separate experts for everything from PLU to taxes to permits?
Not necessarily, BIL converted his barn(s) 25+ years ago with the OK of the Mairie, who subsequently died suddenly and no paperwork was made out so no record. Shoot forward 20+ years and the notaires made a heavy work of themselves explaining why there was a problem. Of course it did sell to someone who wanted the property and wasnt phased by the issue.
The only way to get a comprehensive view of everything that could happen is to see a lawyer who specializes in Droit Immobilier. The problem is that you will certainly have to wait to get an interview and it is going to be costly if you ask them to investigate the case thoroughly - expect 1000 - 2000 euros.
A builder, or a RCIS surveyor, no, they won’t be able to investigate all the different aspects and this is really a legal matter more than a construction matter. If I were you, honestly, supposing you really like the place, and it sounds like you do, I would 1) ask another notaire to look into it, not the seller’s notaire. It is a completely normal thing to do. 2) I would, as you said, check with the mairie and see the adjoint à l’urbanisme who is in charge of these things 3) Think about everything you may have to pay for - faulty pool waterproofing, botched jobs in the house (expect some - from experience, people who tend to cheat with tax are cheap and will try to save money on renovation too… Careful. 4) Neighbours! You cannot underestimate the power of nuisance neighbours can have. 5) If you’re confident you can deal with all this, ignore what the estate agent says and make an offer at the price of the house without the extensions. The agent has a legal duty to inform the seller of your offer, they have no right to refuse it.
Buying a house fully registered in all the correct paperwork is no guarantee at all that the above mentioned were done correctly, 10 year insurance or not.
For some unfathomable reason our eldest and her partner in Guadeloupe have put a pool in at their new house without permission, worse still, it wasn’t put in completely level which is clearly visible when looking at the skimmers. They intend selling in the next two years and move back to the mainland but despite pleading from us to apply for retrospective planning now they’ve said it’s for a buyer to sort out, kids eh.
Nope. The only difference is that in this case, there is no 10 years insurance and a potential legal pitfall that the buyer may willingly decide to ignore.
