Hi All,
As an extension of my post relating to moving into a property before the previous owners have cleared out... can anyone answer the following question.
Is it possible to renegotiate the immobilier fees after signature of a compromis?
We signed a compromis to buy a property back in May, with a target purchase date of 20th August. That date has long gone as well as the target date of 2nd September agreed upon with the current owners in order to reduce their tax bill.
The Notaire has since told me that the date of 20th August was wholely unrealistic due to French holidays during the summer. I questioned this with the immobilier at the time who reassured me that there would be no problem signing in August.
We have had to move into the property as our lease was up - due to the 3 months notice we gave in June after the signature of the compromis. If the owners had not agreed to let us love in we would have been completely homeless.
The immobilier has not even bothered to phone us to find out why we have not signed the Acte - last contact was at the very beginning of August when I called tham to find out why we were so delayed.
In addition, the immobilier appointed the geometre required to draw up the plans for the division of the site in early June and we signed the plans in July. I have just found out that these were not submitted to the Notaire for completion until 5th September!
So, we feel that we may have a case to renegotiate the €15k that we are due to pay the immobilier for doing (almost) nothing. The property had been on the market exactly 2 days when we bought it and they had not even marketed it yet. They have then given a wholly unrealistic date for completion and persuaded us to sign up to it. Now they don't seem to care what is going on and that we have not completed...
Has anyone tried to renegotiate immobilier fees after signature of a compromis? What was the outcome?
Thanks all!
Danielle
Hi everyone,
Brief update on the situation. So we decided to take the advice of various people and go see the agent in person before sending a letter. He explained that although the geometre had done the necessary and drawn up the plans which we validated (at an urgently convened meeting) on 27th July, he had then not sent them on before going on holiday for a month.
The agent refutes the opinion given by the Notaire that we should never have been given a completion date in August and the agent seems to confirm this by saying that they managed to complete 13 other sales during the month (we have no way to confirm but he seemed sincere...). The agent then said that he would be happy to negotiate with the geometre on our behalf as he also was amazed that the plans had been drawn up and then just not sent. Anyway, we have decided not to pursue any claim against the agent - if he manages to reduce the geometre bill, we'll be quite happy.
The other good news is that we now have a convocation for 2nd October for signature of the Acte. If all goes well, we will finally own the home that we will have been liuving in for 6 weeks at that point!
Have spent the day chopping wood for next year, picking apples and pears for chutney and bottling, listening to our neighbour have a 2 day party in his new private bar / tabac at the bottom of his garden and reminding ourselves of why we are here...that it will all come out in the wash.
Thanks to all for the responses and advice during this time. Happy Sunday night to all.
Danielle
concur! If I can be bothered to send an email post visits providing additional info, offer to answer an Qs, perhaps propose other properties to visit, why can the clients not have the decency to give me a quick reply and feedback? Is it too much to expect a bit of politeness, or is it that Estate Agents in the UK have such bad press that we get treated like a bit of s**t on the bottom of their shoes.
tut tut Doug, not working weekends ? In the 80s & 90s no agent , french or british worked saturday and especially sunday so I decided to advertise with the possibility of spending a weekend with clients so, clients would be picked up on friday at say Poitiers airport from Stansted, I would book them into a local hotel or b & b, I would show them properties on the rest of friday then saturday and again on sunday before driving them back to the airport fo their sunday return flight. It worked well until the ERM crisis put the kybosh on things...
Notaires are or at least were notorious for holding on to deposits and/or clients' cash - I think the laws changed (maybe not) but the cash would go into an account at their bank where it would earn interest ! £50K at 1% or whatever is always handy...
Agents do have a bad reputation and are considered the lowest of the low so it's nice tto get the occasional compliment - i realy was gruelling work so i'm glad I found something less stressful
enjoy the beer
I have done viewings and they havent bought at all which is good in some respects as at least they havent gone to the opposition. What gets me is people who enquire and I reply and leave them messages and they cant even be arsed to reply. The hassle this week has been the bank which received the cash last week and has only just paid out - very stressed sellers!
Point taken Peter - there are some excellent Notaires and there are some very poor immobiliers! It was more of a general agreement with Janet's rant - it is Friday after all and it's been the usual frustrating week of clients deciding to buy elsewhere after several viewings of suitable properties with me, a Notaire holding onto the proceeds of a sale for nearly three months for no reason and me getting the grief for it from the vendor, brusque email inquires from ignorant potential clients (quote: more phtos sceptic?) who can't be bothered to write in English - I could go on but won't.
Going out for a drive in the lovely evening sunshine to chill out and have a beer!
agreed, estate agency IS a tough way to earn a crust and it's even more difficult to please everyone all of the time - it's usually a thankless task with hopefully a decent commission to help pay the bills
'some' notaires are indeed incompetant and some are corrupt i'm afraid - many have been defrocked for fraudulent activities over the past 25 years and one is now awaiting trial in the south-west for cooking the books
some administrative bodies are 'bloody-minded' but most of the system isn't - its not fair to give the impression that all notaires are incompetant or all the french admin is bloody-minded
the system works, in a fashion and often certain incompetant agents cause more trouble than good - and I won't even start to tell you about some of the illegal or underhand antics carried out by some agents I have worked with....you probably wouldn't believe me anyway !
I am a relocation consultant/translator and work closely with local estate agents and notaires
Your agent may reduce his fees as a goodwill gesture (if he cares about his reputation) but he could easily pass the buck to the notaire, who is the person responsible for ensuring all documents are in place for completion
Unfortunately France pretty much closes down in the summer months and there could be a number of reasons why the purchase has dragged on; the surveyor probably went on holiday along with all the fonctionnaires dealing with the paperwork. One department that always drags its feet is the tax office/hypotheque department who have to verify that there are no loans (apart from mortgages) taken out on properties (or unpaid taxe fonciere bills etc)
If it is any consolation the year I agreed to buy my property we signed the compromis in March but did not complete until October......I do understand your frustration
Thanks Janet - you've saved me having to write exactly the same comment from the same perspective of an overworked, underpaid immobilier ! Being an Estate Agent is a great job when the sun's shining and we're not stuck in an office all day (or so others think) - most of the time it's a very tough way to earn a crust, made more difficult by incompetent Notaires and bloody-minded french adminstration!
Rant also over!
The idea of the 'client' in France raises an interesting question ; who is the client and does that make any difference to the French agent (or any other service provider)?
The vendors in our case signed a 'mandat de vente' and the price we agreed included the fees (to be paid by the seller). During the initial process of the sale (prior to and during signature of the compromis) the agent convinced all parties that it was in everyone's best interests for the purchasers (us) to sign a 'mandat de recherche' and pay the agency fees directly. Their justification for us was that the net price of the property ended up being slightly less and therefore our taxes, fees etc. slightly lower - therefore advantageous but no difference in the overall result. The vendors appeared to be in agreement at the time but later claimed to have been lied to by the agent at this stage in order to drop the overall price. I remain impartial as to what actually occured here as we cannot really know all of what was said to each party.
So, in the UK the idea would be that the agent was initially contractually linked to the selling party (but must ensure overall that the transaction is completed fairly for both parties). The seperate solicitors then ensure freedom from conflict of interest (in theory) during the exchange of contracts and completion of the transaction. We do not accept the same solicitor negotiating a contract for both parties so why should we accept an agent / broker doing the same?
In France, the notion of the client - who is represented by a professional (not necessarily the same person who pays the fees) - is a much more complicated concept. It is a serious question within the corporate real estate industry (that has given rise to the creation of tenant only representatives, such as the company that I work for) but the question of conflict of interest and seperate representation is still relatively new compared to the UK (and the US, to a certain extent). Within the French residential market, I do not believe that the concept of 'the client' really exists but would be interested as to (1) any opinions people have on the switch of mandates from vendor to purchaser and (2) whether this does - or should - have any impact on the sense of who is the 'client' and therefore any different weighting of responsabilities vis à vis the agent?
I'm not saying that I have strong opinions one way or the other but love to provoke a good debate and will be genuinely very interested in your answers.
several points - quite right Janet, the client signs the contract and is bound to pay the legal fees, agency fees included so ignorance is no excuse - redrawing etc of the parcelles is a relatively uncommon occcurance
july and august are, and always have been difficult for the housing market in France what with the notaires, cadastre staff as well as all the other parties who may get involvedtaking their holidays - if a compromis is signed in say, june then you would be lucky to get the acte authentique signed by september
the notaire isn't the sole party to decide the duration of the transaction - he or she is duty bound to ask the advice of the seller and buyer etc remember,the notaire is someone acting on behalf of all parties and it's in the notaires' interests to look after his or her clients
estate agency can be stressful with very little thanks except from the notaire who is happy to have the business but the beaureacrats aren't particularly 'obstructive', no more than any other country probably
Thank you both, wish us luck, will keep you posted!
Hello Danielle
I absolutely agree with you that communication is key and you should have been kept informed of any potential delays. In my experience, notaires are a law unto themselves, which is why I now deal with just the one. I have found that they do not reply to emails, are often unavailable to be chased, are not flexible to the needs of foreign buyers (one notaire insisted that the buyers came all the way back just to sign the compromis and refused to deal by power of attorney) and are appallingly slow. I was talking to a seller yesterday who told me that the notaires used to act as short term lenders - at very high rates of interest - they achieved this by being very slow to pay out after Acte and presumably lent the funds in the intervening period! Apparently the delay could last for two or three months. Something to be said for regulation!
Janet, my 'informant' is my OH and she would not agree with you on many points. There are far too many shockingly bad, indeed dishonest agents exploiting people. Of course there are many variables, but an agent who is as disingenuous as this one appears is intolerable. Yes, many work their backsides off and I see it with a supposedly part-time job in this house when she often goes out at 0800, gets back at 1800 and is still receiving calls at 2200 and the income over a good year is disproportionate to the amount of work that goes into it. However, not being straight and thus allowing such situations to arise does raise questions and the only way to deal with them is compromise in many cases. That is as often as not a question of dropping a couple of percent commission. Our own experience was of an agent who was entirely dishonest some years ago, so that when we could not get hold of her and went to the agency on whose site we found the house they went totally ape. We thought it was exceptional, now from inside my OH sees some of what is happening and whilst mostly no laws are transgressed, even when they are everybody knows it is too often far too complicated to take action anyway. It is not all poor agents at all, quite the opposite.
Oh yes, agree all round on geometres and notaires who have a monopoly position to begin with and know it full well therefore use the power they have in their grubby hands. Regulation, bring it on.
Hi there Janet,
I fully appreciate the hard work that goes into being a property agent as I have been a commercial real estate agent since 2004 and deal in residential property in my private life as well. I also have to deal with spurious claims from clients who just don't want to pay fees (for no good reason) day in and day out, some of them being the biggest corporates in the world. So when I complain about bad service, I really feel that I have been given a very bad deal. *
Whilst I do not expect the agent to have control over the speed of the process, I do expect a realistic estimate and not to be told that we can absolutely complete in August when this is not to be expected. Also, it was not the Notaire who decided on the completion target date but the agent, as we sat in front of her whilst she prepared the compromis. Everyone was aware of the date constraints imposed by our lease and that we would be 'homeless' if the process took forever - but not one of these co-called professionals has cared enough to either tell us the truth or pick up the phone to let us know what is going on. This is less than poor basic service or lack of professionalism - it is down right rudeness and lack of respect.
We certainly do place a fair proportion of the blame on the geometre and the Notaire - although all 3 parties blame each other for the problems and our comments so far to the Notaire have fallen on deaf ears.
As it happens, our relationship with the sellers is excellent (we are now also neighbours and friends) and we have done everything we can to assist one another - it would be absolutely inconceivable to 'put extra stress' on them. They are making their own claim against the geometre in order to lower his fees and have asked us if we wish to do the same. Yes, they were delighted that the property went under offer quickly but are now absolutely disgusted with the way that we have all been treated since. They have agreed to let us live in their property on trust alone and none of us have any idea how long this will go on for. I seriously understand about the stress of moving in this case! I have taken the most enormous financial and personal leap of faith in my life and in that of my family's. I am concurrently managing the sale of one of our other properties in England which has been no hassle to complete remotely even by email and phone - because all the people I am paying for services communicate with me and each other.
The least I can expect is to be treated with respect and for the 'professionals' dealing with this matter to ensure a minimum of time, effort and honesty spent on issues which have a massive impact on their client's lives and finances.
As a practicing estate agent for the past ten years, this is the sort of post that makes me fume. The seller signs a contract with the estate agent and, unless specifically marked on the original mandat de vente to the contrary, it is the seller who pays the estate agents fees. Secondly, you were fully aware of the fees when you signed the compromis and, by signing it, agreed to pay the price which included the fees. Thirdly, the estate agent has no control over the speed of the infamous French bureaucracy or that of the geometre. Often, the notaire stipulates that the land parcels must be redrawn and renumbered and registered with the Land Registry (cadastre) before the Acte de Vente can be prepared. If this happens in less than four months, it is a miracle - especially with August thrown into the equation - where probably both the notaire and the geometre and the foncionnaires of the cadastre were happily on holiday. I bet your estate agent wasn't. It is the notaire who sets the date for completion - not the estate agent - and you should be hassling the notaire. Of the four local ones in my area, I deal with just one. A notaire who understands that 'any day will do' is not the way to deal with their clients. The date for completion entered into the Compromis is always subject to late change - the notaire has to have all the relevant documentation before the Acte de Vente can be signed. There are a lot of variables involved in a sale. What I would say is that your expectations have been badly managed. If the original mandat stated that the estate agent fees are paid by the buyer, then any negotiation will either come off their net price (and that wouldnt be a nice reward for having let you move in early would it?) or it would be up to them to renogtiate with the agents - putting the stress again on them. The job of the estate agent is to put buyer and seller together and then it is up to the notaire to handle the sale. If the agent did the job in two days, then I expect the seller was thrilled. Would they have done the job better if it had taken two years? No-one ever expects the notaire or the geometre to lower their charges. No-one ever says that they have done (almost) nothing to earn their fees. Someone said to me the other day 'oh it must be lovely being an estate agent'. Actually, no it can be completely shit. House moving is one of the most stressful experiences apparently. This is our life. Most of us are commission only and can do enormous amounts of work and end up, in the words of the TV show, with absolutely nothing. We deal with unrealistic sellers who think they are selling a mini version of Versailles, obstructive officials, unappreciative buyers, notaires who only answer their phones for two hours in the morning so they can 'get on with their jobs', constant disappointment. Many of us work from home which means we are working 12 hour days for six days a week. We are fraught and exhausted and just occasionally, very happy. Rant over.
French property buying is a long drawn out affair. The lack of chains means there is no urgency. For all you know the property may have had other interest…
yep, it's all down to goodwill and argueing your case (which could be difficult), after all, he has sold the house and so has forfilled the contract!
PS, IMHO, I don't think threatening letters etc. will get you anywhere, you're better off speaking face to face or over the phone with the agent, that way you can at least try and haggle out a reduction.
Well said Mark - I was about to post a similar reply.
Unless things have changed in the system I assume it's still a matter of Caveat Emptor or BUYER BEWARE ! I can't imagine you would have any legal grounds to renegotiate a deal. The notaire as well as the agent etc are protected from any blame according to the first (generally) 'clause suspensive' ie "the buyer agrees to purchase the property in the state it is sold without recourse to the blah blah blah "
You can try contacting the agent but I can't imagine any agent agreeing to a cut in commission, especially in todays economic climate - agents don't have guilt complexes, believe me i've been there....
good luck