Granted, but religious wars (mine is better than yours) between 1524 and 1648 on the back of the Reformation, here the French guerres de religion from 1562 to 98, between 2,000,000 and 4,000,000 people were killed with examples like the massacres of Huguenots at the hands of Catholic mobs in cities such as Rouen and Paris are as bloody as the present oil conflicts. As for the atrocities in the Russian Revolution whereby civilian populations were simply massacred for being devout Orthodox Christians, similar in Armenia and then let us not forget what the National Socialists did beyond their own borders in the state of war (as if inside the borders was not bad enough). There we also have ethnicity as well as religion, since the Roma in Europe and the minorities massacred in what became the Soviet Union need to be counted in millions too.
Most modern conflicts agreed. Not all though.
I'm too cynical to believe that religion is a cause of conflict in itself rather than as an expression of tribalism. People are not that stupid. But they are often venal (I'm not talking abut the PBI here).
All modern conflicts are about control of resources, just as they always were - religion is just a way of choosing sides IMHO.
Who said Iraq = Oil rather than Iraq = Freedom? Who said South Sudan = Oil rather than South Sudan = Religion? Who said Punta Arenas = Oil rather than Punta Arenas = the rights of Argentinian farmers? Who said Eritrea = Water rather than Eritrea = Religion? Who said CAR = Diamonds rather than CAR = religion.
I could go on but my coffee has arrived.
Everybody should read 'The Man on Horseback' by Samuel Finer. It is a history of militarism written at the beginning of the 1960s but still as valid today. Animal and human tribalism, search for food and protection of sources of food and water have gone a long way. Modern human conflicts were vestigial of those reasons until probably some 8000 years ago. Then we got really nasty, then we did such things as drag religion into it, then modern politics evolved and made pawns of those who actually did the fighting for their 'masters'. Is that sophistication or sophistry since often people do not actually know exactly what they are being made to fight for?
Hi Guys, It's not just Mankind - many species will attack another of the same species if hungry enough and most will defend themselves, some will band together to make this easier, and a few (but probably more than I can number) recognise the value of natural resources and will attack or defend territory because of the advantage it gives them.
Lovable Meerkats live with constant tribal wars where natural resources are scarce.
Wolves and wild dogs "take out" all the opposition whether resources are scarce or not.
Clever resourceful Chimpanzees have escalated conflict between groups by the use of rudimentary but effective weapons.
And Mankind, the cleverest of all creatures we currently know, hasn't evolved this behaviour out of the species yet.
When JKG said "it's the pressure of people on land that causes conflict" he was right, but understanding that isn't the road to salvation.
Exactly. I don't think we could agree more.
Brian, you are simply confirming my point.
I recall something I heard in the film 'Anzio' when a non-combatant War Correspondent (played by Robert Mitchum) asked the same question at the outset to an American General. The General had no answer.
Later in the film the Correspondent got trapped behind enemy lines and under attack. He had to fight and kill his way out of it.
He later met up with the General and said he had found the answer as to why men fight & kill. When asked why - he replied 'because we like it!'
Apocryphal or not - it makes more sense than most efforts to explain it.
Incidentally the reaction from the General was 'if that's true, then God help us'.
As almost invariably some God or other is usually invoked in these circumstances it makes an interesting correllation don't you think? God = Death & Killing?
Can we extrapolate from that if we stopped believing in God, maybe we wouldn't want to kill each other? Speaking personally that certainly applies.
Try sitting down with a handful of works by Immanuel Kant, Max Weber, Jürgen Habermas, then work your way up to Amitai Etzioni's views on the notion of 'instrumental rationality', then take a gun and shoot yourself or something like that following the reason that lot do not achieve because that question has been asked and turned over for centres and all people can do is argue about it!
As for conflicts and religion. They come and go and usually see a period of secularism that upsets a few people and sets off the next one. We humans have a long track record. Islam is only doing what Catholicism did in its time. Remember, France would probably have been a Huguenot national had they not had a change of king who then brought about one of the most bloody periods of religious persecution in European history before the events of the 20 century superseded them.
Peter I rather fear that the 'far-flung' parts are getting closer. Last night on the afore-mentioned debate one of the reports was on the developing minor (so far) 'wars' between the groups trying to get onto the trucks and boats to England - but apparently deaths have already occurred between the ethnic groups over 'timetables' for each to work the exits.
How soon before we import the Sunni/Shiia conflicts - the major part of the ME conflicts at the moment? Each European nation has members of each group - will they or will they not get involved? I know what I think, but that is a different subject.
There are times when I seriously wonder if war is not the natural state of mankind. What else can rationalise it?
Could be, my edition of the book is a few years old. Seems to be what I imagine though, given there would be a few over half of that number in Africa alone.
I believe I read the current tally of war/internal conflict is 35 worldwide Brian.
I have John Keegan's 'The History of War' which tells us that the world has had a more or less unbroken chain of wars for about 4000 years. Those are the known, recorded ones at that. Here in Europe only very few recent years have been free of conflict, in fact there are very few years between SE European conflicts and Ukraine Russia, which is not yet quite a real 'war'. Peace is a scarce commodity yet many of us believe it is an attainable goal. In the wake of WW2 the UN was set up to pursue that route, there was no break between WW2 and the present though since other wars were ongoing overlapping and since. I am not sure what the tally is at present but the 20 century average is about a dozen wars in any single year over the entire century. It is disheartening in a way but makes the notion all the more a dream worth holding on to.
However, if we only saw the world through that lens or looking at poverty, injustice and all other negative human qualities then we would be totally miserable in a joyless world. The truth, as I have come to find through my choice of work, is that we have to live with it all, sometimes within it, and accept that the world is as it is but try to help change it a little, step by step, even when it seems to be a losing battle. I can both cry when I see what happens to children worldwide and then get enormous pleasure and cheer out of life by looking at what is good and enjoying it. Optimism outstrips the attraction of pessimism in my mind, albeit it I too can be a grumpy old bugger who wants the world to change to suit my way of seeing it at times.
Unfortunately Norman the world has moved on a tad. What happens in these far flung parts will often have a direct influence on what happens domestically. Ok, world peace is a pipedream but we have to make an effort surely ?
Peace has broken out 'at home' for the moment Theo - Vive la paix !
Hi Theo, long time since I spotted you on here - and have missed your erudition!
if you have a particular turn of mind, as I think I have, what was 'funny' in every sense was watching the debate on France 24 when the EU Commissioner for Immigration & Asylum, spent his time, possibly validly, explaining the difference between a refugee and a migrant, and then sound politico that he was, then stating that until he/we/the world could agree on taking 'X' numbers of each, into each country each year - the problem wouldn't go away.
Would it? Or would it encourage more of it and just exacerbate the problem, denuding Africa and the Middle East - and swamping Europe - primarily?
Now apart from safely stating something obvious in theory, he then proceeded to wash his hands by sayng 'as we can't get even the 28 members of the EU to agree..............' thus negating his obviously very well paid job.
Curiously he also offered the encouraging information that in the previous Lebanese crisis we (as in the EU) handled even more refugees/migrants - helpful yes? No?
With this level of expertise and our new jerky President (has anyone noticed?) fresh from his 'how to look more dominant' course (failed) - can we really look forward to a great 2015? I think you are right to concentrate on the home, domestic scene.
Oh wait a minute though.................!
all the best with your 4 resolutions and instead world peace I rather wish you peace in your home because world peace is too funny with all whats going on ;-)
Actually SWMBO cooks very well, so I am not lost there, and when she's not at home I have a four meal ability, plus Lidl 400G cans of stuff that fill in the gaps!
Incidentally €1.99 a bottle from Lidl - you push the boat out a bit don't you? I still have the €1.69 a LITRE - Red Ned, as we used to call it in Oz. You can get used to anything, and I have even developed a taste for the stuff now.
Mind you I have drunk Turkish 'table wine' in my time, so I suppose my taste buds must be reduced in ability.
I can try to get a food parcel through to the wilds of the southern Corrèze if you like ?
Hi Peter, thanks for the thought! Actually it has developed a new hobby - checking out cheap properties elsewhere! Still comes up with the same answer though - unaffordable.
Still there are bad days, and not so bad days and whilst the latter outnumber the former, I will survive. :-D
oh dear Norman, bad luck. Have you considered meditation, yoga or maybe joining a silent order somewhere in the Ariège ? I have spare rooms here if you need sanctuary...
Well Peter,
my particular 'peaceful' domestic war zone, despite my résolutions, was revoked in exactly 5 days! Mind you even that was something of a record.