Hello Beverly, what a horrid situation. We had a similar demand last year for 20,000€, but thankfully it had come down to one organisation not having passed figures onto another and it was resolved by our accountant very quickly. We run a SARL and always have done, and because we take a regular (small) salary each month regardless how good or bad a year we are having our cotisations do not fluctuate with my husbands earnings. 2010 was a rather bad year for work and our accountant reallocated the salary to repayment of money the company owed us, so from a cotisation point our income was nil - if you are now a TVA registered enterprise you may find that your accountant can allocate income in a different way so you are not liable to RSI on everything your husband brings in. Our accountant is always able to tell us at year end what the cotisations are going to be for the following year - your accountant should have been doing this for you too! I hope some of this may be able to help you, best of luck.
Hi Beverley
This answer is of no help, but one of empathy.
I am an auto entrepreneur (translator) so deal directly with URSSAF rather than RSI. However I have had to go to the RSI office with 2 clients. In 1 case they had taken the cotisiations from his bank twice for the same year. In the case of another they sent him 4 letters in 2 week; 3 telling him owed differnt amounts of money, one saying they owed him some money. He took with him a dossier from his Accountant and the lady said "I haven't got time to read this, but we have had problems with our computer"!
Worth challenging the amount demanded?
I sometimes get the feeling that self employed/small businesses are regarded with suspicion in France. Often they have lowish incomes, but at least pay their dues, which is more than can be said for some higher up the ladder, naming no names.
Take care
Hi Beverly. First of all when your husband set up his self employment did he also set up a declaration Insaisissabilité. This means that if he business is affected financially it would make your property, that is to say your house, not your land if you have a vast amount, immune to this financial issue. We sat one up at the same time as our business and it cost around 650 euros. And, for all those reading if you are in business this may be a wise move. Our friend is a notaire and he suggested it. I agree with Andrew in everything he says, however I would also let RSI know that your accountant is examining it don't leave RSI guessing this will hopefully buy a little more time without them penalising you. This did happen to a friend of mine who was a plumber and he sold his house. But, he did manage to get the amount reduced and was able to pay monthly with no penalty. Whilst RSI can have no control over the sale, they can have control over the proceeds as money is owed to the state. As for accountants, I have not had a good experience with one yet. I have a gite under AE and my accountant says I should be paying the highest rate of AE tax & cotisations ie 23.5% because I am not classified by the prefecture, but my business advisor, RSI and national impot office say it should be 13% in total and it is not a legal requirement to be classified, and to add insult to injury my local tax office disagree with the national tax office. I just think that the French never argue the toss and just pay and if there is any ambiguity, unlike a UK accountant, the French one will not use this is the clients favour. I think the phrase is c'est normalle. My thoughts are with you. Bon courage!
Hi Beverly,
I haven't got time at the moment to write a long reply but I just wanted to quickly say that we are in a similar position and are in the process of closing our SARL due to an incompetent accountant, our cotisations have been wrong since we started the SARL in 2006 and we are still fighting the system, my husbands business partner had an accident and has been unable to work since 2009 and has not received a single centime in endemnity payments due to the cotisation problem, the list is so long that you wouldn't believe!!
A couple of things I will say to you at the moment, if you have an enterprise that works similar to a limited company i.e SARL or I think an EURL they cannot touch your house, as long as your accountant has done his job properly, what they can do is take any money from your personal accounts, and I mean clear them out, to pay for personal cotisations (this has happened to us) you must try to protect this money by opening an account in only your name (as long as you are not paying personal cotisations through the setup of your husbands business) and transfer any money into there. If you can't do this then draw out as much as you can and keep it under the bed.
They will and can clear your personal bank account!!
I don't know what accountant you use but if he is based in Riberac and is the one that you get refered to by the Chamber de Commerce or Chamber de metier then he is a crook, they work on commission unlike the UK and therefore do not have your best interests at heart when setting up your enterprise, they get more for SARL and EURL etc, on top of what they charge for doing the accounts. They have completely ruined us and when we complained they struck us off their books. They didn't submit our accounts to the Greffe for 2 years and we were arrested, yes ARRESTED by the gendarmes and were looking at a 7OOO euro fine, we were lucky that the court accepted the copies of the accounts we had in our possession.
Sorry this reply is a bit muddled but I have horses waiting for their breakfast!!
If you want to talk then please contact me
Susanx
Cheers Andrew - its like weve been dozing for the last few years or going through the motions when we should have been a bit more switched on (high alert probably!) and savvy! Because Rich works almost constantly as a sub contractor for the same business he hasnt had much opportunity to be paid in other methods such as two weeks in the Bahamas or cash!! Think we need to wake up and get with the rest of Them and become a bit more streetwise and creative!
Yes Im taking your advice and talking to RSI - even if its just delaying the inevitable its giving us a chance to regroup and rethink! Yes our income tax is amazingly low and is paid and up to date - that is until they decide to "adjust" it - ha - see Im preparing myself already!
Chins have been hauled up!
All government administravtive agencies, RSI,MSA etc have extensive powers, they are a law in themselves as are their counterparts in most countries, never underestimate them but at the same time, never live in fear of them. Anyone owing taxes and cotisations can be made bankrupt by them but this would be a last resort after everything else has been investigated.
First problem is of course one of language and communication and the understanding of a very complicated system so you do need professional help. A really good translater/interpreter is money well spent and if you feel your present accountant is not up to the job, get another.
Ha Barbara, I have a coffe beside me as I type - I'm a coffee addict! Not rude atall!! We live in the very southern tip of Saône et Loire, Burgundy about an hour and a half north of Lyon, 40 mins west of Macon. My hubby is a Plumber by trade and is subcontracted by a very sucessful English Property Developer (who employs both French and Brits)? He generally renovates village properties in the famous wine villages around Beaune ( Meursault, Pommard, Puligny Montrachet etc). Property up there is very expensive, thanks to its famous wine connections, so our plan to move up there following the sale of our house is under threat! Were for sale with a couple of local estate agents and were advertising privately on www.french-property.com property ref IFPC20121 - so if you know anyone who wants to move to this beautiful part of the country...............!
Were lucky with Richard having this profession - he does get requests for work from locals (french and brits) he has got to know up in Beaune and we know we can probably move anywhere and he will be able to find work - everyone seems to need a good plumber at some point in their lives!!! So we are seriously thinking of moving West where more property choice is available and comparative property prices are more favourable - but we have a 13 year old daughter to factor in and our son lives in Beaune and works for the same Property Developer - so it is all a bit up in the air - and hypothetical at the minute!
By the way I found an accountant who is understanding....British but WORKS for
a French company....Not that close to me but.
You have to continue persuing and finding a clear direction.
Very hard work most of the time but it pays.
Fill yourself with confidence
Yes it's all a bit different, especially accountants! Most people simply keep their earnings within the micro entreprise scheme, take a holiday or stay at home if they get near the limit. And yes, taking cash... when in Rome!
The whole system needs reforming but I've been saying that for years and am now convinced that nothing's ever going to change! they do offer tax breaks etc for the first three years but I believe that you have to start up under that status from the word go, if you simply change status later you don't get all the incentives as you're already up and running - again Finn should be able to clarify that one a little better. You can always speak to your chambre de metiers rep for free advice.
I don't think the RSI are going to send the hussiers in to take your house away - that only happens when you don't talk to them and it's there only option. As long as you're talking to each other and trying to find a way out they'll be happy. On a plus point, it's the charges sociales that cost a fortune and the tax on what you earn is often next to nothing in comparison (opposite to the UK).
Chin up ;-)
Im not suprised Andrew that people think its normal and I know that the role of an accountant here is very different to a UK accountant, one works for the State, the other , the Client! And I do appreciate the Services this country provides, the health service for one is second to none. I just think the system needs to shuffle some of its bias away from those who are in the "vunerable" zone, giving those of us in this Zone a chance to get to grips with paying higher cotisations and charging their clients TVA - that in itself can lose you business.
When we do talk to other people, accountants included in this one, the thing that gets mentioned ever so quietly is making sure you are paid cash for some "sales" - so what message does that put out?
At this stage I just want to know that our home is safe from RSI getting their hands on it and whether or not the cotisations are roughly correct - then we know what were dealing with - when you know how bad/good a situation is atleast you can prepare yourself to work towards a solution - thats the theory anyway lol!
Go and make a nice cup of tea....I am a coffee girl...LOVE 2 LATTEZS in the
morn and then go on to mineral water.
Where is the house? Where will you move to?
Change profession maybe.
Just maybe...BUT what is it that you do now...IS THAT a rude question.
Thanks Barbara
its comforting to know we're not alone with this problem, though no consolation to either of us! Youre right though, you do have to try very hard to be positive, sitting worrying and plotting how to nobble my accountant will get me nowhere!
Have to tell myself that they cant get blood out of a stone, we are selling our home to help pay this debt - so they will get their money eventually. I just dont believe that the system is correct when it says it needs to take more than 50% of your income and thats before we pay a penny of income tax! If the system is set up, as Andrew suggests, that you when you move from a Micro Enterprise/ Autoentrepeneur to and EURL or any other TVA registered sole trader, the lower earners are made to pay proprtionally extreme cotisations! Logic tells me that the majority of people who exceed the limits of income for a Micro Enterprise etc and have to change their statut, arent going to jump from say 30K income to 70K but are more likely to go to 40/50K. We are the most vunerable and this system is more likely to break these small business' - In my humble opinion the scale of charges should be turned on its head, giving those just begining to expand their business the chance to make it suceed, whilst they are initially having to deal with charging their clients TVA and all the ramifications that incurs on a business not to mention the added stress!
Second rant over! I keep telling myself its only money! Hope your own problems resolve themselves for you!
Good Luck to you this year!
one thing I didn't mention is that many people here in France think it's quite normal to hand over half of your earnings to the state in the form of charges sociales and tax - I had this conversation with my brother in law who's a farmer and he says he normally ends up paying between 50 and 60% to the state. France is a great country with super services etc but all that costs a fortune and unfortunately those of us who work here are paying for it alongside everyone else!
A problem that comes up again and again is accountants simply doing the paper work and then getting it in the neck for not explaining things - unfortunately most seem to think that because expats are living in France they should understand how things work and as everything is normal to them they don't realise that things are different in other countries!
Bonne chance à vous !
I too have had a bad experience with my accountant;
ongoing nightmares with RSI demanding 50% of takings.
Still going on...
It is so hard to understand how incomptentant and selfish others can
be....BUT YOU HAVE TO REMAIN POSITIVE.
We need good luck this year.
Andrew, thanks for your reply! Your logic re leaving the micro enterprise started dawning on us over the last two weeks - sadly because for over three years we got no hint of what the revised cotisations would be, we had no chance to do something about this several years earlier. Our accountant gave us no indication of what we were letting ourselves in for and I am beside myself with anger at his incompetence ( to add fuel to this he charges us a small fortune for his services aswell!). Im waiting for him to get back to me- they are supposed to be looking into the figures - and will make a rendez-vous.
Hope that Finn sees my post in due course and can make some sense of my ramblings!
Many thanks again for replying - i was beginning to think Id made some sort of faux pas with the lack of response to my post!
Yours slightly less disgruntled of Charolles!
Hi Beverly
Unfortunately I haven't got the answer on this one and suggest you go straight to your accountant to get him to talk you through the figures. Unfortunately it often isn't worth earning that few thousand extra and having to leave the micro entreprise set up as you end up losing more than you gain unless you start earning a lot more. Ask the RSI for an exact breakdown on what you owe and why, year by year.
I'm fine advising on autoentrepreneur and micro entreprise set ups etc but I think you need Finn on this one - his knowledge is far more wide reaching thatn mine
Bonne chance !