RSI -what powers do they have and how do we know if we are being over charged?

Health Care & Carte Vitale
61

Thanks for your input here Tracy - seems like their demands arent that far off what theyre asking for and its our bloody stupid naivety thats to blame - cant say any of the expletives I want to on this! - do you know anything about changing your statut in reverse? Going back to being an AE - say for instance if we sort this debt out then radically change our income status?

Well as Ive said before we are talking to both the accountant and RSI and just hope that this year we can sell our home. Thanks for the offer of help with translating - really kind of you and I will ask if I get into deep doo! I know Chagny -ish - my hubby knows it better, especially the Credit Agricole there! He lives through the week,in a little hamlet near Nolay, Change is its name and the company he sub contracts to is Arena Park run by David and Sue Bishop - is that the one you were thinking of?

Yes be nice to chat about whats available up there - i do look constantly and had been looking South east sort of between Verdun sur le Doubs towards Chalon - property being a bit cheaper there.

Speak soon!

62

Sounds like a good strategy! I'll take that on board Brian for future communications with them!

63

A builder we use who is not French but also not British and has been here for many, many years advised us that if we had set up a small consultancy instead of being individual AE we would have to tell RSI (and others) that they are wrong every time we had a bill. That is what he does and says he 'wins', the same goes for all other institutions demanding money without exactly broken down bills. OK, we have never suffered that because we went for AEs but we have had similar with URSSAF and find that face-to-face discussion with them resolves it, they climb down without admitting that they are wrong and we pay what we owe. All is fair and square.

64

Bloody nightmare these Decimal points! Wish that was all that was wrong in our case. It is difficult to be self employed here whether your french or an interloper but i know with the power of hindsight that had my husband stayed in the Auto Enterprise statut we would have been ok - sailing our our own ship albeit a ketch not a luxury yacht! Before my heart attacks I worked seasonally for three Brit second home owners doing Changeovers and offering welcome meals as a bit of a cash sideline, which gave us a bit extra in our pot and Im thinking of doing it again to help out.

Ive said before on other replies, other than this rather large problem we love our life here, my three children are bilingual now - what a gift we have given them! I dont hate the UK but I am happier here and we dont need all the 'extras' that life in the UK seems to have everyone wanting.

Dont give up your dreams too soon!

65

Love the "honesty and justice" remark Neil -so true!

66

Hi Beverly,

I'm sorry to hear of all your RSI troubles, all too common over here. Anyway, as far as I am aware, for an EI, the RSI take around 47% of your NET profit.

In Year 1, you pay a 'forfait' based on your expected earnings, in year 2 you pay another forfait based on your expected increased, earnings. In year 3 you pay a 3rd forfait PLUS the balance of what you didn't pay in year 1 (this is assuming you had a profitable year in year 1). Presumably that is the year you had your heart attack?

Because the first 3 years are estimated, the RSI assume your income will go up as your business goes up, unfortunately yours didn't but I assume your first 2 years were pretty good as your husband was subcontracting. The RSI will be assuming your income has increased and they are probably estimating the figures especially if they have not heard from you.

The above is a very rough guide to how it works, I'm sure there there is more complications than that but it gives you an idea of how it works. I looked into it very carefully before my husband set up his business and we decided to start as AE because of the dreadful system they use - however, had he a sub contract like yours I am sure we would have gone for a SARL or EURL, you really do need to try and determine what statut he actually has - get your accountant to tell you.

The important thing is to communicate with the RSI, offer to pay something while it is being sorted out and then take your money out of your bank account, or open one somezhere else so they can't take your money out. Explain to your bank manager what you are doing as well.

As for moving to this region, we live in Chagny just outside Beaune and there are some very reasonably priced houses to be had, outside the wine villages, especially if you are in the building trade. My husband is a carpenter and I belive I know the company you are talking about as I recently met them about providing guided tours to their clients.

Anyway, will send you a friend request so we can chat about the area to give you some ideas. If necessary I can also help you out with translating stuff.

All the best

Tracy

67

Ah Barbara that is so very sad - Im sorry you have had to go through all that - I hope you are well now!

No!! We are not going back to the UK - everything else about our life here is what we wanted and found!

xxx

68

Thanks Jaqueline

LIKE!

69

I agree with Andrew, I don't think that you're in any immediate danger of losing your house! Any process takes time and you have a lot of time to talk to them which delays things on their part to do anything.

For me, it was emphasised to keep URSSAF onside and I found them to be remarkably easy to talk to when I got into a very similar cashflow crisis. I managed to negotiate a way out over the course of the negotiations.

The comment about accountants is spot-on in my experience, they just work as form-fillers for the State!

And yes, when in Rome! The French are brought up in this system and know how it works! One of the best things I heard from a French colleague from her avocat: Honesty and Justice are two separate things and should not be confused!

Stay positive!

70

Thank you Liz - your story just goes to show how this organisation has 100's of us running around in circles of fear mainly due to their errors and not based on actual facts! Good on you for hanging on in there and good luck to you too!

Still wishing there was a "LIKE" button on this site!

71

I agree

72

I have been fortunate so far in my dealings with the RSI but everything I am reading inclines me to believe that the best way forward here is simply not to have any aspirations or hopes of setting up businesses, and that as one French business person said to me (who had his business and home in the UK). France is for farmers who have a hard time of it, or for the employed, if you are working for yourself then according to the tax and cotisation system you are guilty of any crime until you prove you are innocent. They are always right and you are wrong. One person I know of went to see URSAFF because they were claiming inordinate amounts, they took him to a tribunal, had the deeds to his home and then admitted that the decimal point was in the wrong place on the computer - no apologies of course. He then had to pay for a solicitor and the court case even though he was not in the wrong.

73

Thank you Claire!

BTW this site definitely needs a "LIKE" button!

74

Sandra - youve given me hope! I am going to stamp my feet and not allow the accountant to be lacklustre - should he be that way after his initial investigation! Im sorry that despite your success with getting your cotisations reduced to sensible levels you are left feeling defeated and want to return to the UK.

Aside from this nightmare with RSI like you, we love our life here and knowing that being self employed is not an easy thing to take on even in the UK, we are looking at ways to change that but it will take us a bit of time and luck to get to that point!

Best wishes!

75

This is very sad

HERE we are a smart person like you having the woes of the world of tax.

But I had probs in Uk...NOT the same but the VAT people trying it on and driving

me to illness...CANCER infact.

Then I had the NHS DOING TERRIBLE THINGS TO ME AND eventually my parents....THEY

died without dignity. All the board meetings with the hospital directors etc got me know where.It was

a disgrace.

Are we all bumberangs....

So you will sell up and go back?
You know the biggest problem seems to be that everyone is trying

so hard to make money...AND SOMETIMES GET their name in lights that

they fail to find true friendship, support and trust.

Insecurity.

Not aiming this at you....JUST looking around ALL over the world.

76

I'm so sorry Beverley that you have had all this stress. I think you can see from the replies that we have all had similar dealings with the RSI. I stopped contributing to the RSI in 2010 because I changed my statute, but they calculate two years back so that if you have earned more than their original contribution you end up with a huge bill to pay. I've arranged with them to pay monthly, which I have been doing, but after two months had a letter to say that they were stopping my monthly payment schedule and 'recuperating the debt by all means necessary' because I hadn't kept to the schedule. I had, but by the time they processed the cheque (ten days later) of course it was later than the agreed date. I'm waiting to see what they say. But with that and also the tax office sending me a final demand for VAT, when I have been to see them personally this summer, gone throught the last few years accounts and checked with them that I had paid up to date.

After 2O years in France, 4 years of being self employed have made me want to give up and go back to the UK - something I thought I would never say! I'm hanging in there though, as i love my life here and my friends, my son is at school and my new business is developping and is very exciting. If I can only get rid of the RSI and VAT office!!

Good luck - I don't think your house is at risk if you and/or your accountant is communicating with them and trying to come up with a solution.

77

Think I want to say thank you to you all for your input - some of your stories have terrified me - what nightmares these organisations have put people through is disgraceful! We are a sort of EURL ( this is how lackadaisical Ive become) but I cant find any reference to it anywhere - it is pronouced Ré -al which our accountant assured us was the best way to go. I dont think our accountant is a crook - Im learning to accept that they have a completely different role to that of a UK accountant and giving their client detailed advice doesnt come naturally to them - however they are working on our queries and i have told RSI this by recorded delivery. Think I am going to start "moving" some of our money about though! I just dont want to get myself in a massive state about it all (having had two heart attacks - stress is not good! and this is why I joke around about this matter even though I know it is serious) I think its safe to say that RSI is a law unto itself and they have mismanaged peoples accounts - possibly ours included - not having had any communication from them until this Christmas Eve since 2008 goes to show the mess their organisation is in.

I would still like to know if there is a simple way to roughly calculate your cotisations after you have your finished accounted books from your accountant?

78

Hi Beverly,

It seems that you and a lot of other people I know, including my husband's business are in the same boat. Our situation is not as drastic as yours but we have been asked to pay back bizarre amounts to URSSAF and RSI on their calculations of what my husband earns even though our accountant deals with all returns. I have left it all in the hands of our accountant and things (fingers crossed) seem to be working out.

79

We moved here in August 2007 and started a SARL company. 4 years battling with the RSI, no payments, no coverage as they would not accept me as the Gerante of the company as I was only a 49% shareholder and a female, so finally after the accountant did battle and they finally accepted, I received a bill for just under Euro 86,000 for the 4 years! After several rantings and ravings, throwing things around and wanting to give up, my accountant called them November last year with all our turnover/profit details for 2007 to 2011. How she did it I do not know, but they reduced it to just under Euro 15,000 which I can pay back over the next 3 years. I started to pay the amount back in December 2011 and our 2012 cotisations will come directly out of our account on a monthly basis as from January this year. I am still waiting for the carte vitale! We keep ourselves just under the TVA threshold and try not to make too much profit, just enough to live on. We have now had enough and are planning to sell up and return to the UK in a couple of years time. If I had money, did not have to work, then France would be the ideal place to live, but for someone trying to work, exist - well I have had enough of French beaurocracy. The French have won - will be better off back in the UK, no mortgage and earning minimum wage - at least the NHS is free!

80

Good one Claire - my déclaration d'insaisissabilité cost around 300€ when we bought the house. I didn't mention that as I presume you are now a sarl/eurl and so your property is not part of your business and so cannot be seized if I understand the sarl/eurl set up correctly...!

Just want to reaffirm what I said earlier - you must keep talking to the RSI and any other authorities, as long as your in discussions you'll know what is happening and they won't do anything without informing you (normally)

Courage !