Be very careful!
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There is clearly a âhuman rightsâ issue here as effectively she is âstatelessâ. At the same though there would be a huge cost to the UK taxpayer in getting her back, a likely trial followed by a long prison term and then years of monitoring. Which is more important?
She would also, possibly, need protection from the maniacs who would see her as a threat and potentially try to end her life. Sheâs not in a great situation all round.
She made her bed, now she gets to lie in it.
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But one of the issues under discussion here is precisely whether she did âmake her own bedâ.
To lay all the responsibility on a childâs decisions, and none at all on the experienced adult ISIS propagandists that obviously influenced her, would be myopic in the extreme.
What would you say to a 14 -15-year-old-girl groomed online by an adult paedophile, and who subsequently ran away with him? âYouâve made your bedâŚâ?
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Thatâs a false analogy because they are by no means remotely similar situations. Begum (whose British citizenship I think we probably should reinstate, though subject to intelligence reports), whether groomed or not - and a lot of them are groomed, at all ages, especially in prisons, was of an age at which she must have known she was committing a criminal act.
Your paedophileâs seduced child is not committing any sort of criminal offence (unless you want her charging with conspiracy to commit a child sexual offence!).
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The analogy is not between the legal situations - itâs about how responsibility is apportioned between the child and adult in each case.
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If youâre talking about responsibility, you canât reasonably compare two acts, one of which involves effectively no criminal behaviour and the other being obvious and serious criminal behaviour. I donât think even Miss Begum is claiming she didnât realise at the time that what she was doing was wrong, but I donât think Iâd want to rely on her word in any event.
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Thinking a bit more - perhaps a better comparison for Begum is with 15yo drugs mules in County Lines drugs cases. They came, more recently, to be treated as much as victims as criminals.
But they were still criminally responsible at 15.
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Apples and oranges.
The UK has one of the lowest ages of criminal responsibility of any country. I am not sure what that tells us, if anything.
It is 13 at the moment in France but there are moves to put it up to 15.
Thatâs a good point, re age of criminal responsibility. I remember when the UK abolished doli incapax. Not a good move.
However, merely moving the age without a wholesale reform of the system would not be helpful. Any jurisdiction needs facilities to catch and reform young offenders, including properly funded youth justice and probation services.
The problem for people like Begum (disaffected youth of many ethnicities) is a lack of connection to society, perhaps?
The age of criminal responsibility in this case is largely a red herring. Even if reform were to raise it in England there has only been talk of increasing it from 10 to 12.
The bigger question is whether she was groomed and therefore whether she had full responsibility for her actions at the time.
We will never truly know where the balance lies.
However anyone who doubts the ability of internet groups to dissociate previously sane adults from their moral base should read this BBC article.
There are people in the US who genuinely believe Hillary Clinton is a Satan worshipping pedophile and that Donald Trump will, any day now, be restored to the presidency and that when that happens there will be live TV executions of his enemies and those that âstole the election from himâ.
Do not underestimate the power of anything that can get people to believe that sort of claptrap because if it can do that, it can get people to believe *anything*.
FWIW I am inclined to think that there was a large element of grooming, perhaps she opened the door with some fifteen year old naive curiosity, but should she hang for that?
Throw in a good dose of indoctrination and Stockholm syndrome and I think you can explain most of her behaviour.
The problem for Begum, though, is that if the truth is that she sought out ISIS, willingly gave her body to the cause and enjoyed every minute of strutting around with an AK-47 on her shoulder, then her side was beaten and she has belatedly realised that being stuck in a camp in Syria with no prospects and literally no country willing to give her a passport, and with her kids all dead, and finally feeling a bit homesick the âgroomedâ line is what sheâd spin.
The dilemma is which version is true, or if either are true and thereâs a third path that she took.
I do think that those who refuse to accept ANY possibility that she is a victim are blinded by predudice and really do need to think about how effective radicalisation techniques actually are - especially in the young. Pinning it all on her is pretty short sighted.
Can she ever be re-admitted to UK society? As I said, as a practicality probably not. Certainly not under the current regimen.
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In a move which will surprise no-one
However, suppose Begum had been White, with a nice English name - compare and contrast
I wouldnât trust her as far as I could throw her. She seems to be sneering in every photo I have seen and probably has her sights set on becoming a reality superstar. I recently watched the documentory about the Peru Two who got caught smuggling drugs and did time in a Peruvian prison. It was quite interesting but I just cannot believe anyone could be that naiive and gullible with all the publicity about drug smugglers and B**gum is probably the same. She and the others knew what they were doing, no one goes to those places on holiday.
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So youâve decided that you understand her and her motivation from a few photos.
Riiiiight.
Re-read my comments previously about grooming.
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I donât see a relevance between the two linked articles to be honest.
Begum removed herself from the UK with two others to join ISIS. There was (as far as I remember) no one at the gate forcing them on to the plane to join a despicable terrorist regime - sworn enemies of the UK and the west and it was only when it became âconvenientâ that she attempted to return to the UK under the guise of an innocent abroad.
I havenât changed my view. Sajid Javid as Home Secretary was right in my view to remove her UK rights to citizenship.
Her legal team are suggesting that they will continue the fight. Well, of course they will⌠Iâm sure they are earning well out of it as lawyers often do.
This is a story made in a newspaper office to sell copy - simple.
She says sheâs prepared to go to prison in the UK if she is allowed to return. Maybe sheâll get the message eventually that the UK donât want to touch her with a barge pole and that sheâs not welcome.
The fact that she is non white is immaterial in this case.
I did and my view is not changed. The two are not in the same planetary system.
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I disagree, had she been white she would have almost certainly not had her citizenship removed in the first place.
The Begum case is a complex one, as I have said before, you are right that no-one forced her on the day, to get on the plane but there is mounting evidence that she was radicalised - possibly by British agents and smuggled into Syria by a Canadian agent. Itâs all very murky.
Now I donât generally go with conspiracy theories so Iâll withhold judgement on the secret service angle but it is certainly true that with the right approach you can persuade adults to do very extreme things apparently of their own volition, kids are even easier.
Itâs all very well sitting comfortably in oneâs home saying âI just cannot believe anyone could be that naiivesic and gullible with all the publicity about drug smugglersâ when it is clear that people, especially young people, are sufficiently naĂŻve to get caught up in drug smuggling and terrorism.
I donât think her behaviour should just be âlet offâ but she has been rendered stateless with no prospects of any justice at all - that seems wrong however you look at it.
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She is a Bangladeshi national (though they say they wonât have her) according to this report of court proceedings: Shamima Begum loses statelessness argument against citizenship deprivation â Free Movement