Off the top of my head… if you don’t have that “urge” or “good reason” to retire to France… I suggest you might start with the 90 days twice a year (or however it works out) and see how things progress…
France is a very different mindset/lifestyle/country in so many ways.
It can be challenging and rewarding… or challenging and ghastly… and often it just depends on one’s situation and how one looks at life and deals with things.
Personally, this was our aim/dream for many years… and nothing has diminished our love of this country and our fully integrated lifestyle.
For some folk, simply having the dream is enough and, in reality, they don’t want to actually cut their ties with UK to the extent of making a permanent move… let the dream be there… just out of reach.
The trick is to think things through and be honest with ones hopes/abilities wants/dislikes etc etc.
Another aspect, if one has a partner… is that both need to be similarly motivated. So often I hear one or other telling me how “OH has always fancied France…”
In my opinion it takes two! not one who is going-along simply not to upset the applecart.
We are all different of course but if I was so ambivalent about moving to France that it all came down to where I would pay slightly less tax, I would consider it not worth the hassle and disruption of making the move.
Oh, I’m thoroughly minded to retire to France. I’d do it tomorrow if I could afford it.
However, as retirement approaches, I’ve been looking at what I might expect my income to be and - well, TBH, disappointing sums it up.
I won’t be on the breadline - I’ll have a work pension, the state pension, some small (well, tiny) personal pension funds and a bit of money invested in a couple of ISAs
The income from the ISAs is likely to be the difference between a modest lifestyle where we don’t have to watch the finances too much as long as we are not overly extravagant, and one where we definitely have to watch the pennies and, of course, the income from them won’t be tax exempt in France.
sounds to me as if you both need to spend a “long time” here to check it out… just the differing seasons can change one’s views on a place.
Spending time here and spending money as a “Resident” rather than splashing it a bit, as one often does as a Holidaymaker… might help you see how your financial position would work out… you might well be surprised.
Nod, I don’t think we’d move straight away. Having the house in France helps get a feel for the pace of life and 56 is pleasantly similar to UK weather & seasons.
We also don’t plan to sell the house in the UK which will give us a route back if we really feel that “tourist mode” works best for us.
But, TBH, we’re pretty certain where we want to retire.
Curious. I have always understood that the RFR is the totality and represents one’s max, but the actual tax calculation then adjusts for the various wrinkles and you pay tax on what’s left. If we paid tax on our RFR i’m sure it would be more than it actually is. Next time I am in the study I will look at the last avis to see which way round it is.
Although, as I said in reply to Stella, I have no ambivalence as to whether I would prefer to retire to France - BUT if the taxation regimen in France means I’m worrying all the time about money it’s going to be no fun, is it?
I don’t think it’s unreasonable to have finances as a concern when I’m expecting maybe 25% of my retirement income to be tax exempt in the UK but not in France.
Our income will be plenty for a basic move - but I would actually like to enjoy my retirement, have enough for a few luxuries and holidays elsewhere in Europe (even if living in France) and I’m getting close enough to retirement that I’m starting to think about what our finances will look like - as I said the pension pot is not going to be quite as generous as I’d hoped.
Obviously everyone’s situation is different - what is increasingly obvious is that I can’t judge exactly what my retirement income will be, nor can I easily tell whether I would be significantly worse (or better) off in France - so the plans have to try to take both eventualities into consideration.
In addition to which, tax rules in both countries change year on year and with very little advance notice. I think we can expect more changes than average in the next few years in the wake of Covid, higher borrowing, government intervention on the cost of living etc etc etc.
And not forgetting the ever fluctuating exchange rate - so you will have to build in some financial ‘wriggle room’. However already owning homes in both countries will probably give you all the security you need.
You have hit the nail on the head Billy. When retiring you do not want nasty surprises financially so better to get the correct info up front. Not about ambivalence, its about informed choices. I love France, but no point living here or anywhere else for that matter, if you are constantly penny pinching in your retirement when you wouldnt be in the UK.
I haven’t read the rest of the thread, so some of what I’m writing may have already been discussed. If so apologies for repeating stuff. I noticed your comment and wondered if our experience might offer some possibilities for you.
I think you said you would keep your UK property? We have a flat in the UK which we let out. That additional money has been an invaluable backstop.
When we first arrived here (15 years ago), in addition to where we live, we also bought a small commercial property in our local town - beauty salon with flat above and for several years that too supplemented our pensions.
When we first arrived I said I would “never” run a gite. But in fact over the early years I began to realise that our friends were creating the work of running a gite but we weren’t earning any income from them. So now the cottage at the bottom of the garden is used by paying guests through the summer - not many. I always leave a week between bookings. And that too brings in additional income.
Hope this gives you food for thought. PM me if you want any more details.
Remember British people can no longer run a gite as a sideline on a basic visitor visa, nor stack a few shelves in a supermarket. Times have changed . (You can have a rental property tho’ as that’s passive income, so in BB’s position I’d swap the ISA’s for a rental property in one country or another)
Everything obviously depends on one’s aspirations and current lifestyle but we realised that working was costing us a fair amount of money. And stopping working created some disposable income that helped bridge the drop in overall income. But then we are not interested in fancy cars and cruises, but simple pleasures so we actually live well within our income.
We cashed in a UK private pension and paid French tax on it. The saving over paying UK tax paid for our current car. Why would you willingly pay more tax than necessary?
Well, maybe - if it came down to “a bit” more tax in France I’d still be moving once retired. Maybe, as you say, it will actually be the case that I’ll be better off in France in which case what is already almost a no brainer will become practically mandatory.
Only if it’s going to be 1000’s of € worse off (which TBH I can’t see will be the case) would it mean remaining UK based and just visiting.
Hi , @billybutcher [didn’t seem to click on the right reply button, hopefully BB is alerted]
I’ve been following your ‘dillemma’ a wee bit on and off - on where to settle for brexit I chose France for healthcare (lifespan) food and wine, and size. That was between all the med counties + portugal.
Tax didn’t really figure (except maybe Italy) but france was the cheapest by far with the social taxes exemption. Even with france social taxes, only portugal beat france for income (10% for 10 years).
I’ve done numbers and will pay more in France than the UK eventually, but I think it will kick in around 30 - 40K pounds. I calculated it would cost me 2K more tax to live in France than UK at that approx level IIRC.
What price the sun?
You should do some numbers - but only to reassure yourself, with respect I can see where your heart is. France simulators etc.
One thing straight away though - on your ISA’s yes these will be 20% in france with an S1, but why not use as much of them as you can to max out your personal UK pensions up to your annual allowance (which goes back 3 years remember and is 40K per year) - and then pay the flat rate tax of 6.75% on them in France when you cash them in , nothing else thereafter.
You could always try to get a half hour ‘freebie’ with Blevins or Kentingtons (properties in the sun thingy) - I think they usually want 250K assets to take one on, but if you’re below that then frankly you’re going to be better off in France anyway?
. (You can have a rental property tho’ as that’s passive income, so in BB’s position I’d swap the ISA’s for a rental property in one country or another)