Social distancing etc... UK & France

I think the WHO advice link was in Feb 2020…

since then… the French Govt have made masks compulsory in certain situations and… as I have already said… recommended but left to personal discretion in certain other situations…

the French Govt advice, latest update was for 2nd June 2020…

Well at the beginning there wasn’t, so they were just being factually correct.

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and

Its the way a reputable republic acts - democratically :wink:
I can appreciate that the independent dictatorship of the United Kingdom works differently :slightly_smiling_face:

It’s a tricky one, I agree - but if they are ineffective why bother to wear them in theatre?

Oh, and there is at least some evidence mask wearing reduces the amount of virus a person sheds into the environment - while I agree this does not prove that wearing masks reduces infections it is at least heading in that direction

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41591-020-0843-2

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Possibly because if you are elbow deep in someone if you cough or sneeze you can’t cover your mouth/ nose?

Hehe Eddie… I thought modern surgery techniques relied less on that - veterinaries armpit deep in cows innards a different matter :wink:

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shades of James Herriot :roll_eyes: :hugs:

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I’m sorry, but I’m not prepared to stand by and let others say there is no evidence that masks work. There has been evidence that they work from the moment in history a surgeon put on a face protection for the first time when carrying out an operation.
Back in the 60s I worked in Piccadilly. It was a place for tourists and even then one would see parties of Japanese with a few of them wearing face masks - why? Because they had colds and they were protecting their companions.
Over the last months the spin around masks and the (mis)information on masks has been an entirely political one - and that includes the WHO - and please don’t tell me they are objective. If governments have shilly-shallied over masks it’s because they couldn’t make them compulsory, because there weren’t enough masks to be had.
If you have ever been on a train and had someone opposite you sneeze without covering their face and smelt their snot almost immediately, if you’ve ever lived with someone who has hayfever whose sneezes come out of nowhere, if you’ve ever walked behind an elderly farmer pushing a supermarket trolley with both hands and listened to his (unprotected) hacking cough, you wouldn’t be asking if masks are a good idea.
Of course they are not perfect (nothing in life is) but they are part of a number of initiatives (hand washing, social distancing etc) that help us reduce the likelihood of this pandemic getting completely out of control.
Anyone who does not want to wear a mask, at least have the honesty to say (like Tim) that it’s because they are uncomfortable. Or that you look silly in them. But please don’t use “science” as the reason for not using them. I have posted elsewhere two authoritative articles - one on silent spreaders and what Singapore learnt very early on in January (while the WHO were still pratting about) and one on the risks and how to avoid them.
My annoyance with all of this is if, in deciding not to wear a mask, you were to catch the virus and die, that’s one thing. But again, as I keep saying, it is me you will kill.

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There is a scientific debate about the efficacy of the general public wearing masks & there is no definitive evidence that wearing masks is necessary or worthwhile.

Just as an example here are a few objections voiced by 3 Professors from UCL in a letter in last week’s British Medical Journal
“ * Wearing a mask may give a false sense of security and make people adopt a reduction in compliance with other important infection control measures1

  • People must avoid touching their masks and adopt other management measures, otherwise masks are counterproductive23

Other potential side effects that we must consider, however, are:

  • The quality and volume of speech between people wearing masks is considerably compromised and they may unconsciously come closer
  • Wearing a mask makes the exhaled air go into the eyes. This generates an impulse to touch the eyes. If your hands are contaminated, you are infecting yourself
  • Face masks make breathing more difficult.4 Moreover, a fraction of carbon dioxide previously exhaled is inhaled at each respiratory cycle. Those phenomena increase breathing frequency and deepness, and they may worsen the burden of covid-19 if infected people wearing masks spread more contaminated air. This may also worsen the clinical condition of infected people if the enhanced breathing pushes the viral load down into their lungs
  • The innate immunity’s efficacy is highly dependent on the viral load.5 If masks determine a humid habitat where SARS-CoV-2 can remain active because of the water vapour continuously provided by breathing and captured by the mask fabric, they determine an increase in viral load (by re-inhaling exhaled viruses) and therefore they can cause a defeat of the innate immunity and an increase in infections.”
    https://www.bmj.com/content/369/bmj.m2003

Hummm
I can’t tell what my missus is saying half the time with or without a mask :rofl:

Hi Nigel, I’m bowing out of this discussion. You and I are going to have to agree to differ. Like a court case - each of us coming along with our “experts” arguing opposing points of view. My only observation about those doctors who “oppose” masks is who’s funding their research?

Nigel is a doctor I believe

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I’m not sure Eddie that makes any difference. Forgive me, but it was a doctor who advised me to drink milk after I had my hysterectomy to “build up my calcium” when any self-respecting microbiologist will tell you that milk is acidic and the body, in needing to maintain balance actually takes calcium from the bones to reduce the acidity.

It’s a poor argument to imply some sort of financial jiggers pokery by researchers who don’t agree with your “gut feel” that everyone should wear a mask. Just look at the bottom of any scientific paper where authors are required to declare any financial interests. As an example here is a systematic review where the authors received no funding. They concluded,

“The evidence is not sufficiently strong to support widespread use of facemasks as a protective measure against covid-19. However, there is enough evidence to support the use of facemasks for short periods of time by particularly vulnerable individuals when in transient higher risk situations.”

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I don’t know that it would be a microbiologist that would tell you that Perhaps a biochemist

And Nigel It’s a poor argument to dismiss my opinion as “gut feel” when there are considerable parts of the world where the great part of the population are wearing masks, with success.

Hi Nigel… are you in England or in France.

Here in France the government is still backing the wearing of masks in certain situations and still recommending it in others… accompanying the other aspects of protection…

so, it would seem that the French Govt still thinks that masks (worn correctly) are an important part of the whole strategy to keep Covid-19 under some sort of control… it is clearly stated… everywhere… that masks are part of… not a stand-alone.

cheers

Milk is mildly acidic & some calcium may be mobilised from bones to buffer the acidity (more correctly it’s phosphate ions normally bound to calcium in bone that do the buffering). There is absolutely no evidence that drinking milk causes osteoporosis & in fact there is evidence that consuming dairy products is at least as good as taking calcium supplements to counter osteoporosis.

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It doesn’t mean that France is right as they also recommend 1m social distancing when most other countries & the WHO recommend 2m (which is also backed by evidence on droplet & aerosol spread). The recommendations in France on wearing masks are only in very limited situations & certainly not for everyone shopping in a supermarket as you insist should be the norm.

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I think that’s my worry about masks, I don’t deny that they have a role and a part to play as a component of a bigger system and they are somewhat effective but I worry that by wearing a mask people will become complacent about the other things that are just as effective and important ie social distancing and hand washing.

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