Sue Gray appointed Starmer's Chief of Staff

I only post this here because Sue Gray has some involvement in citizens’ assemblies.

I knew nothing about Citizens’ Assemblies until I saw Labour’s proposal, when next in power, to ban fox hunting 100% by closing the loopholes which allowed fox hunting to continue its cruel bloody practise under the guise of trail or drag hunting for the last 14 Tory years.

There is a Labour intent to form a citizens’ assembly, possibly to advise solely on fox hunting, or as part of broader environmental concerns.

Apparently, such a mechanism was used in Ireland to help end the ban on abortion and to permit gay marriage.

Roll them on! Some may have failed but others could prevail.

https://www.parliament.uk/get-involved/committees/climate-assembly-uk/about-citizens-assemblies/

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https://citizensassembly.ie/overview-previous-assemblies/

The next big one will be on the right to die. It’s sort of the last big battle and the craw thumpers in the Iona Institute (funded by lunatic Americans’ religious donations), having been battered in the women’s right to choose referendum, are crawling out from under their stones, regrouping and girding their misinformation loins. Standby for more Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt (FUD) from the Irish Catholic Church :joy:

I’m with Esther on this. My life. My choice.

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Are you letting your hatred of religion cloud your judgment?

The fact that it’s your enemy saying something doesn’t mean it’s untrue. The Canada experience worries many reasonable people: see this article in the Atlantic How Canada’s Assisted-Suicide Law Went Wrong - The Atlantic (you can use https://12ft.io/proxy to get round the paywall).

The article contains a number of examples of people who were eligible for euthanasia under the terms of the MAID law. Unfortunately, allowing those who want the possibility of euthanasia in the face of what they feel is unendurable suffering has also allowed many other people with conditions far less severe to be euthanised.

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But if that is what they want why shouldn’t they go ahead?

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Perhaps because it’s an irreversible mistake? As a teen I very much wanted to kill myself at times, but fortunately couldn’t easily do so.

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I don’t know if you read the article, but I found some of the examples desperately sad, They illustrate how society has become fractured and how we put different worths on people.

"Rosina Kamis, who had fibromyalgia and chronic leukemia, along with other mental and physical illnesses. She presented these symptoms to the MAID assessors and her death was approved. Meanwhile, she wrote in a note evidently meant for those to whom she had granted power of attorney: “Please keep all this secret while I am still alive because … the suffering I experience is mental suffering, not physical. I think if more people cared about me, I might be able to handle the suffering caused by my physical illnesses alone.” She was put to death on September 26, 2021, via a lethal injection, at the age of 41.

"Michael Fraser, though not terminally ill at age 55, had become unable to walk and suffered from an array of medical problems—liver disease and incontinence, as well as mental-health issues after what he described as prolonged sexual abuse as a child. His monthly check from the Ontario Disability Support Program was barely enough to live on. “Some of the struggles he talked to me about was this feeling of not being worthy,” the doctor who gave Fraser a lethal injection on July 2, 2022, told the Toronto Star. “There’s a social aspect to poverty, a hierarchy, that affected his psyche. He told me that it did.”

“Tyler Dunlop is a physically healthy 37-year-old man who suffers from schizoaffective disorder and PTSD, and has no job or home or social contact. “When I read about medically assisted dying,” he told a local news websiteearlier this year, “I thought, well, logistically, I really don’t have a future.” Knowing that “I’m not going anywhere,” as he put it, he has started the process for approval under MAID.”

What about the mother of manipulative children who, as she ages, feels increasingly the horror of “being a burden”, and whose children encourage that idea? I know my mother felt that, and it required constant encouragement for hert to feel otherwise.

@Ancient_Mariner gives another example. I suppose we’ve all felt that, especially as teenagers.

What about the current Canadian recommendations by a ‘parliamentary committee … that would further broaden MAID eligibility, including to “mature minors” whose death is “reasonably foreseeable.” The influential activist group Dying With Dignity Canada recommends that “mature minors” be defined as “at least 12 years of age and capable of making decisions with respect to their health.” Canada is scheduled to move in 2024 to officially extend MAID eligibility to those whose only illness is a mental disorder."’

It may be that the slippery-slope nature of euthanasia - once you’ve accepted it in principle, where do you stop? - is inherent in it.

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It really is a test, now that science provides us with hitherto unthinkable choices. Every decision we make seems to have unintended or unforeseen repercussions. Much has already affected population, gender and genetics. Some of it very good for most. Some not so much.

The genie is out of the bottle for so many things, and mankind is trying to negotiate ways through while retaining its humanity. AI will be another science that changes our world, and this will happen very fast. Let us all hope mankind will find the human compass it needs.

I totally understand the desire for assisted dying for those who suffer from constant pain or have a gradual incurable disease - but the danger with making it semi-freely available is that vulnerable people might be pressured into seeking it by relatives, or by a feeling of guilt that they are a burden on others.

It’s also an ethical worry for doctors and nurses, who rightly fear being asked to “play God”.

I am also reminded of the forced sterilisations and euthanasia carried out by the Nazis - a benevolent society could set up a scheme with the purest of intentions only to have it hijacked by a future less kindly regime.

There’s no straightforward answer, and I think any steps taken have to be very carefully considered.

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I don’t disagree with any of your point, except from the standpoint that while these objections are often raised, they are theoretical, whereas there are certainly many people who want to die but are unable to afford to go to Dignitas, or have left it too late.

Anecdotal examples aren’t sound debating points, but my mother decided to die because her quality of life had suddenly dramatically deteriorated, but she had to go on hunger strike before she could get palliative care.