Two sensible and optimistic article IMO.
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Another great clip from James O’Brien - go James !!! :-
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Yes, listened to that one earlier this afternoon.
I was looking at the comments on the BBC on this subject and there is a LOT of ranting about the HoL “subverting the will of the people” over Brexit.
This really does suggest that people do not think about what happened. The Lord’s decision was to allow the lower house to not simply choose between the negotiated deal or no deal but be able to insist that a better deal is sought.
The Lord’s have not made a decision but have given the Commons wider scope in its decision making - I thought Brexiteers wanted to “restore sovereignty” to Parliament - it seems that’s only when it suits them.
In practice there wouldn’t be time to re-negotiate so that would probably boil down to putting Brexit on hold (assuming that the EU27 will allow it) but it would be still Parliament’s decision (you know, our elected representatives).
Sheesh.
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Well said Paul - a question of being careful what you wish for…
The funny thing is, however hard I try (like James O’B), I have never got a Breixteer to give examples of either loss of Sovereignty or European laws that have been imposed on them!
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Indeed.
Dealing with the 2nd point first, not even David Davies was able to identify such a piece of legislation - though he did, at least, have the wit to observe that it was the principle that was important.
In fact there have been times that we have voted, unsuccessfully, against EU legislation which is explored here (already linked to by Simon, above) - it’s not clear whether Davies was malinformed or speaking from a personal perspective.
Moving to loss of sovereignty - this was always at best half true if not an outright lie. We voluntarily ceded some decision making to the EU (by automatically adopting EU laws into UK law) but had representation in and input to the decision making process - at best sovereignty was diluted a bit; the vast majority of the time we agreed with the outcome anyway.
We, however, retained the sovereign power to pull out of the deal - this has been adequately demonstrated by the Brexit process so the irony is that the referendum result and implementation of Brexit have shown that we were a Sovereign Nation after all, counter to the Leave campaign claim.
As to gaining sovereignty - that might be a bit of an illusion. Outside the EU there is a danger we will find that we have all the negotiating leverage of a small nation desperate to do trade deals - i.e the square root of didly squat.
If we wish to trade with the EU we will have to adhere to EU regulations, without any input into their formation. If we wish to set up trade deals with other nations they may well press the advantage - India has already said it would want more visa quota from us. That is a loss of sovereignty (not to mention loss of control over immigration)
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I agree. Europe found it too easy to welcome new member states without giving too much thought about how the voting mechanisms would work. Just have another jolly banquet and wave some flags. Easier than making tough decisions.
At the very least there should have been two Europes, one for Euro states and one for those outside the euro. It must have been quite frustrating for Cameron and others to go to a European summit during, say, the Greek crisis and find that that problem and those of the euro were the only thing anyone wanted to talk about.
The present polarising of debate makes me ashamed to be British. And ashamed of the UK government for having asked the people in the first place, just to solve a little local difficulty in their Party.
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Frankly all this will of the people nonsense really gets me furious. It’s not the will of the people it’s the will of the Barclays, the Murdochs, the Rothermeres and all the other extreme (but allegedly respectable) right wingers and Empire romantics ably supported by the Dacres of this world all of whom having been poisoning the well of discourse for the last many decades. The conservative party has been hollowed out such that people like Bone ,Cash and Rees- Mogg have an influence out of all proportion to their abilities. As for Cameron there used to be a sign in the gift shop “You break it you pay for it”. Save for leaving a post he clearly didn’t relish and no doubt keen to start his (soon to be remaindered) autobiography he appears to have walked away from the train wreck scot-free.
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I also hate the phrase.
But it was the will of the people - or at any rate it was the will of a large cohort of the population who have been left confused, poorer, with less job satisfaction and security and a loss of identity by a move away from traditional industries to the knowledge industries, high-tech manufacturing, frictionless supply chains and globalisation. The “austerity” measures post the 2007/8 collapse also affected this group disproportionately,
It was fertile ground for the Leave campaign to sow its lies and misdirection.
One might say that Cameron had it coming, he and all of the political class including (and perhaps especially) the Labour party.
Unfortunately Brexit is the wrong solution to the wrong problem and ultimately will not help those who voted for it.
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