Hey Ron, Thanks for taking it in the right spirit. Nothing serious. I'm also having a little difficulty here. Please keep up the posts, I enjoy hearing a different perspective. Enjoy Boxing day. Joe
Hi Buddy, getting a bit marble bereft myself. must ease off. if you fancy a quick spoon anytime let's go privée. Have a good 'un. Your good friend. Ron, eating humble pie today!
Hi mate,
was playing marbles yesterday, seem to have lost some, you know so obviously have them! Back to reality today on seeing Brazil have just passed UK as sixth/seventh GDPs which means work for some of us who are looking at the difference between children who are and those who are not. French entrepreneurs pale into insignificance whether they exist or not against this stuff.
However, will be eating shepherd's pie this evening, must have lunch and go out to hunt a few shepherds...
Take it easy, now have I hackly annoyalised any other customarilies of this auspicuous Furvive Nance Fretwork? Must have a dekko three!
Hey Joe
Sorry I have only discovered this message. I hear excatly where you are coming from, and a feeble excuse I know, but as a novice, I still am not sure of all the differences between chats, comments, blogs , posts, discussions etc. However, I do fully understand that 'prattle ' should be kept well clear off the main topic, so sincere apologies from me.
As to The Brain, I think he has lost his marbles and should be kept away from main stream society at all times. I would be quite willing to go and visit him from time to time, bearing gifts, and wine sopped cake, where some jolly serious spooning can be undertook, assuming they let me out at the end of the sesh. Best trawl around to who else I've hacked off.
Seasonally yours
Ron the lost seep
PS Hi Bri
graz' ben'
Very wise words Brian, mind you I wouldn't expect anything less from you ;-)
Superb answer Andrew. It comes along with some of the people here also having opposite extremes between what they know or knew and the life they 'construct' (mainly in their minds I suspect) here. There are vast differences between the views of people like Gretchen and yourself who are living a 'French' life and those who are living either an 'exile in paradise' or something between that and a more French life style. My wife and I are working people who have chosen work-life balanced but we are stressed because of the influence of the outside world on which we depend economically. Scratch under the surface and our French friends are much the same. Yes, we compare but not UK/Switzerland/France because when one works in (e.g.) Ethiopia, Tanzania, Viet Nam and Kyrgyzstan as I certainly have in recent times the spectrum grows exponentially, ditto my OH with her countries... Some friends have escaped les grandes villes but still have family and friends in them so that we meet those people, get to hear from them and encounter exactly the same dichotomy as the UK and elsewhere. Make no illusions people, warts and all France is a western European country that wants the same as all others ultimately. I am yet to meet a peasant farmer who does not want a vast flat screen TV and a Range Rover!
Shortish answer this time - you'll find all the differences you want to see within France - I know people who don't work hard and think the family is more important than success but I also know plenty of others who work 7 days a week to achieve what they're after (all these people are french, some are french family here). I think the whole debate is not realistic because most of the contributors come from very stressed/hard working lives in the UK to "escape" to peace and tranquillity in, on the whole, rural France where nothing happens and there's no real economy. Gretchen has already pointed this out. Go along to any grande ville in France and you'll find the same consumerism driven economy with people working in the rat race. Some search the work-life-family balance (my case) others search financial reward (brother in law has two girls at uni and has hardly ever spent time with them but has been able to buy them brand new cars as soon as they passed their permis, we won't be able to but we'll be there each evening to help with homework and spend time together at weekends). School is no worse than in the UK, often better but it is very very different. I'm a qualified teacher and have taught in the UK and France, my kids are French rather than English (I'm the only anglophone they have contact with) so none of these comparison issues crop up - it's all normal (except for me but I've been here long enough to accept it all!) the work ethic exists in France too but again depends where you are.
bonnes fêtes à tous ;-)
But we both are and having the occasional distraction. If you have to take everything serious all of the time you (meaning one) gets a bit boring. We have both put a lot of thought as well as brevity in here. So lighten up and join the festive spirit, have a great big cognac (or similar) and let yourself go. Not having a go and no banter expected back, just a friendly unentrepreunerial suggestion.
well get them back on man and do some Christmasing or Noeling, put the stress back in its jar until the holiday is over then if you really must unscrew the lid again and let it out and your pants fall down again, just 'give a little whistle'...
Hi Patsie (and everyone),
Apologies to have dropped out of the discussion for a couple of days - I've been working my pants off trying to clear the decks at work (back in the UK) for the past few days.......
I'm quite shocked by the concerns shared by so many regarding the state of education in France. I hadn't realised it was so regimented. Schools often look quite quaint from the outside, but I have never had any dealings with the education system.
Reverting slightly back to the original topic, is it a good or bad example to children to be seen to be working hard as a parent - even at the expense of spending time with those children ?
A number of people have replied to the question I posed to the effect that the more relaxed system in France is better because it allows more family time. I am conscious of the fact that my wife and I have been working our bits off for the past couple of weeks. That, together with this debate, concentrates the mind on whether one should trade for a 'better' work:life balance. But is it really what children need or want to (e.g.) spend more time fishing with their dad ? I don't think it is necessarily wrong for your children to see you work hard and make a success of your chosen field of work and for them to see that this necessarily involves endeavour. I take pride in my achievements and I'd like to teach my children to do the same. That necessarily involves them doing some graft and if you are going to preach to them you'd better be seen to be doing the same yourself - children will not fall for the old mantra of 'do as I say, not as I do'.....whilst it is great to build a tree-house in the forest with your kids that is what the holidays are for (and why we bought a place in France !)....you can't do it every day or else it loses its magic and you just teach your kids that it is fine to spend the day loafing....
Anyway.....work has finally finished for another year....my wife has escaped the 5 hour traffic jam she got caught in at the end of today....we are off to the tranquility of our maison en France in a couple of days...and because we've been working so hard for a while we are really going to appreciate la difference.....
To Brian and Ron. Hey guys I enjoy reading your contributions look to reading and learning from your wisdom and experience (both) but Jaaazus if you have to chat can you please keep it out of a discussion. I wanted to read more feedback on the original post (yours included), instead had to plough my way through your chat. I don't feel up to exchanging banter with you so please don’t have a go at me for stating the obvious and just get on with what is in the post allowing for some diversions but consider us when verbally spooning. In friendship, Joe
Whoa, do not worry about offending people on this point nor you Patsie. Because over the years my wife and I have both done bits and pieces on child abuse, given that children's rights has become very much the centre for child research professionals, we are forever giving French parent friends advice. The teacher my younger daughter faces next year has a reputation for it and she is a 'young teacher' with about three children of her own. Does she behave the same way toward them at home and when they pass through her class? I hope not for THEIR sakes. We have to toe the line a little bit right now only because her father happens to be our mayor, so nobody uses our names on her score. However next year if she bullies our daughter especially, but any of our close friends' children, then we shall use the full force of French legislation to deal with her. No timid mice here, I have stood up to government ministers in several countries and heads of state in a handful (including the UK some years back), so a little mayor in the process will be dealt with. The division of children by abilities is often so wrong on individuals that it is shocking and what neither of you have touched on it good old favouritism that is rife and oh boy do I dislike...
I am not disillusioned with France I never expected that much of it, it was better than the UK for many reasons. I am just concerned that the good things they have will be outweighed by the lack of opportunity and money within the next 30 years. Children now have the internet and the opportunity to see what the rest of the world can offer them - I believe, and so do others in the education system, that the education system is failing the children/young adults and that this will lead to a revolt in the schools not just by the teachers. Blind obedience is not easy to maintain when people can see how it works to actually ask questions outside of the box.
I tried to register in more than one field here as an auto entrepreneur and was told no way - you cannot do more than one profession - why I asked. Because you cannot I was told. What did you choose at 14 they said - I told them I wanted to be a nun but decided to become a secretary when all else failed but that I could do other things to make money as well - NO, NO, NO, madame it will not do.
I have heard of teachers screaming in children's faces tu est NULL, NULL while the rest of the class sniggers. Mental bullying exists and is tolerated here. There are 4 streams of different ages in a two class school locally and children spend 2 hours a night after school trying to catch up. This is not good. France could be so wonderful it there could just be more balance in education and I am worried what will become of France. I think it would be a crying shame if it collapsed due to lack of foresight and a desire to remain in the last century for the next one.
Both, or as a German might say 'jein' agreeing and disagreeing, but mostly the former and doing it as a social scientist who is a bit fed up with the French attitude toward the social sciences whilst they still have some of the finest social scientists in the world. So with you 1000% there. I think teachers are fighting against the odds here is another way of putting it then. The allrounder principle I shall also similarly agree is smelly at best, it discourages the specialisation the modern world encourages and yet for all the emphasis on the pure sciences the French are not, not and not again producing world class outstanding scientists as they might imagine they should. But we could discuss this for a month and still have room for more. Happy Christmas instead!
Got me, meant 'we lend him' ans in lending library, give out on loan and all that, or 'on the borrer' as we said when I lived in London. Yes Jane, caught me.
Interesting thesis Gretchen. Having had a terrible standard primary education myself after the age of seven and then (if you know what the 11plus was) survived the pressures of a pretentious grammar school to go n to one of the world's top universities I believe very much in the pwoer of education but realise just how many flaws it has. I know people who invest in very expensive private education for their children who come out of it far worse off than they would have in the state system and, of course, vice versa. There are no exact prescriptions. However, it is in the design of education and its execution that its success is found and languages are equal to the sciences in giving the word creative and useful people. Learning a second language opens the doors of the mind to more than language, it brings in culture, traditions, humour and everything else. I am glad I grew up bilingual and retained and improved it and learned other languages because I have had many doors opened. I wish that on every living being.
Come on now Brian, I assume he was "borrowing" the english books from you and not "lending" you french ones!
Snap. One of the reasons we moved out of the UK at all was that although our daughters were in a first class primary school, we were going to move one way or another and the chances of getting a school to match the standard were low. They were learning Welsh from the word go but the French on the curriculum was one 40 minute lesson per week! Not one teacher spoke French, so as a governor I was asked to support the head asking for a supplementary assistant or teacher to make up at least a few hours for the junior years classes. LEA couldn't afford, no! They said that the priorities were toward training teachers over the next 10 to 12 years for all primary schools. Oh yeah!
Anyway, in essence it is a similar dilemma and both systems should be ashamed for the children and, in my view, the teachers who have the motivation but virtually no real support. One of the teachers is now quite a good friend and he comes to visit us specifically to practice English, which always shocks my daughter in his class this year, and lend a book or two to read. But then he spent a whole year in England before studying and says that several of his colleagues have hardly ever been out of Aquitaine let alone in a country that uses another language. I am both sympathetic and angry, but I guess you are too on the 'inside' Andrew.
The French education system is in desperate need of change but let's not forget that across the board, the standard of English amongst French people is way way higher than the standard of French spoken by the English ;-) (and that from a languages teacher having taught languages in schools in both countries - it was proposed that french be taught in Primary schools in the UK in exactly the same way as English has been introduced in French primary schools but I'm not sure if it has been done and no extra resources were planned - I've also been asked to help out when a german teacher was asked to teach first year french - not her fault, she didn't have a clue and admitted it which was hard as she was head of MFL but it she was the only option, now is UK education really better...!
My friends boys are English and they have the same problems with the English they are taught.
Having said that, I have a french friend who taught english in primary school, in the last communist village around here, and she speaks english very well indeed.
We have a grandson who is being brought up bi-lingually, German and English, but as he lives in Munich,I expect the standards in the schools will be better.
I think that the french are a bit our of joint as english has just been voted the language to work in for the EU!