at least you can sue in the UK...not a nice culture..but we are geared up for it...not so in France...its made onerous enough to put most people off!
Carol, I receive regular Joseph Rowntree Foundation reports. I put some on Facebook and a few have been pasted on to SFN. In fact the UK has some of the worst and biggest pockets of poverty in Europe. Yes, France has some too, but smaller, less of them and not as profound. Log on to their site and check for yourself.
In relative terms I agree with Andrew, however the capital in the UK economy is larger becuase of the City and that distorts the real picture. Where he is coming from is pretty precise and it is consequently less 'accident prone' as per 2008.
Education, OK, my younger daughter will choose herself but if I can guide her then I have a list of European universities I would recommend, none of them in France but only a couple in the UK. Students should think, research and learn. Most UK universities have stopped doing that, which is precisely why my OH walked out of a senior academic position at the first opportunity and I threw in my towel too. That is sad, I spent roughly 30 years being a student and then frequently teaching or supervising them and mourn the passing of quality in the UK where they had more really good universities than any other country in the world in my perhaps biassed opinion. Again, the convergence between UK and France is sometimes unexpectedly rapid and the real differences minimal.
Sorry...should read France has a more powerful economy than the UK?...(have France on the brain!)
Perhaps, actually I am less sensitive than I seem. It does not pay to do either the anthropological or human/children's rights based work I have done for four decades with the burden of sensitivity.
Yes, I know there are things done so incompetently it is intolerable here, but then I also had a house that should never have been sold in the first place that cost my ex- and I more than it cost in repairs and rebuilding. Thanks to a surveyor's report that missed every kind of thing you describe here. That was only 1988, so not that long ago. I think the two countries are more alike than some people wishe to admit at times, with exception of the class prejudices.
Really? France has a more powerful economy than France? did you read the finance minister who three years ago stated that the government had no idea what the state of play in France was because no one ever added up the figures...! far fewer nationals own their own properties, poverty is greater in France in some parts...I know people via my ex au pairs, who dont even have an inside toilet or bathroom...now apart from squatters in the UK...you dont see that..ever. My comment about work experience stands...you both know that children are given an education in France..and I mean given...they are not encouraged to ask questions or take part in the learning...I do belong to local groups in my French town...and the brits who have kids in school share their experiences...children are expected to choose a degree...study for that and stay in that area...no options to move or change careers...why? why so straightlaced...why so limiting for the individual..its the inflexibility I find frustrating and old fashioned...
I have Brian...that is spent time in the cities, Paris and Bordeaux...and yes...they are like UK cities..open all hours...my point is that I live in a village...have just had a holiday in Cornwall.. and they are open all hours too! my point was that the villages in France are so often closed for business! we were amazed the first few weeks living in France...we were ejected from the library, post office, France Telecom because of 'unusual closures' literally...notice on doors saying they were unexpectedly closed...we asked everyone why that was...and got a shrug! now in the UK...the post office and library open when they are supposed to....one delightful experience was waiting outside the large office of France Telecom in Perpignan (a city...yes?)..on the door the opening hours...9 - 5...(sorry Andrew...but they closed for lunch as well despite being in a city) and what time did it open....9.20...there were 40 of us queued outside...and the explanation and apology...guess what...nada! I asked why we were left waiting outside in the rain...and you got it, shrug, pout and pfft! now that wouldnt happen in the UK..
Life has made you very sensitive. I was a working class girl...dad a lorry driver with some slightly iffy friends...!....brought up in a very Jewish middle class part of London. The road we lived in was 100% privately owned..whereas our house was a protected tenancy...our politics very left wing in an area almost totally right wing. Training as a nurse was not considered normal... I was expected to be a hairdresser or work in a shop....not to marry a doctor either. In our first little Hampshire village...I was a novelty...GPs cockney wife...was not the only gay in the village..but the only socialist! literally the only member of the labour party.... Perhaps what makes me love my fellow Brit is that when I look at the UK...ok..bits of it broken, some of it disfunctional.. I still see a country that strives to do the right thing...that has always made space for those who are not accepted in other places, like the Jewish community I lived with in my part of London...I brought home my school friends who were Asian, African, Persian, American, Polish and occasionally the odd other European...and even my poorly educated parents accepted my friends without any prejudice...of course there is a still a class problem...but then my husbands best friend has just returned from a French village because he got so angry with the locals...he made friends with the workers on his house and the great and the good in the village told him it wasnt possible to have parties that included all these people...he had to choose who to be friends with....my point...? Ive never felt rejected...despite having very different life experiences and not always voting popularly or being the right 'class'...I have just spent this year working in a homeless hostel...where the residents and staff thought I was 'posh'!...but I was made entirely welcome and felt very much part of the establishment...The person you describe sounds like a prat...are you really judging the UK on him? Ive met some pretty awful crooks in France...the mechanic who charged a fortune for work he didnt undertake...the Notaire who 'forgot' to tell us about some of the problems with our property...ditto the Surveyor who told us our house was problem free (he forgot the roof which is enormous and needed relaying...the fact that one wall was so damp you could stick your finger through it)...now in both these cases I would have sued in the UK.. in France...we were told it could take 7 years to sort out and leave us bankrupt...so we have had to bit our lip and pay for the work...I dont judge France on that...just assume Ive met some nasty people who one day will get theirs if left to Karma....I left the UK for an adventure...I certainly had that...perhaps that makes me lucky...I was not desperate to get away from anything...
My two are sleeping soundly in the next room, it is my dogs demanding out now that it is light getting to me. Several vans of hunters have passed so no forest today. Roll on 29 February! But great to see agreement. I might like a good debate but I get complaints about the frequency of long, loud laughter from my office all too often :)
Can't I even have a cup of tea in peace, there's enough mayhem here with the kids playing up! nice some people agree on this site ;-)
And yes you can compare life in the dordogne to life in devon and cornwall but not london - carol you need to spend a bit of time in french cities to realise that life is just as "rat race" as in london. If you want sunday shopping you can find it in france - plan de campagne between marseille and aix en provence, the largest retail parc in europe. 35 hr week is a myth and productivity is still higher in france than the uk, france still has a space industry, can't remember the uk launching satellites, airbus, etc. You really do need to get out of the dordogne (and st cyprien) to see the other france, you'll be amazed ;-)
Beat you to the same response by seconds - do I have a share in your brain cells or you in mine? All this agreeing and common opinions!
Very narrow minded views, what about factory workers, whop owners need a break at lunchtime - they're open until 7 in the evening! France has a larger/more powerful economy than the UK and was hit far less than the 2008 crisis than the UK and although things are far from being rosy, its socialist model allows more security and less "casse". The UK could well be heading for a bigge fall than France ;-)
I disagree, one of the things about France is that there are people who go against the grain and do many things, often people with enormous reputations as intellectuals later on in life. Of all countries in Europe it seems to be those people much of the rest of the world knows, not English, German or American names. Extraordinarily enough, I do not always favour those famous French myself, often preferring German and Irish intellectuals, but have to acknowledge their exceptionality. The French also love other people's 'different' people so that to be different and have a story to tell rather than a lifetime list is also admired. The French are also very hard working, however the fact they 'down tools' at 1200 and return at 1400 to go again at 1700 is too easy. People I know locally work that way, then in their off hours they are voluntary fire and rescue service, cleaning and planting out the village or whatever. Unlike the general belief that the entire country closes for two hour lunches a neighbour who works on the local hydro-electric plant on the nearby Dordogne will laugh and say that probably half of working France still enjoys that perk but the other half might get a sandwich on the job and it is changing because machinery does not close down, shops can no longer afford to miss the people with two hours off to shop, etc. I think he has a good point, or?
Do not hate, but have strong distaste for is better. I was seven and a bit years old, son of a recently demobilised soldier in early 1956 who had lived all but the first few weeks of my life in Cologne. I was with a day carer for my early years, then a 'nursery school' and then school. I arrived in England naturally speaking German as a first language. Imagine what I was called? Scots family, so what! Didn't matter, children and their parents all referred to me as a Nazi child, a Kraut because I spoke German and whilst I naturally did speak English with a SCots accent, that was mistaken for a German one. OK, it was a decade after WW2, but I was not only born on the 'winning side' but after it, however I spoke the language of the bad guys. The closest 'friends' I had were Mirza Najeeba recently arrived from Pakistan, she was just a 'wog', etc, and Jane Penfold who lived in the 'Gipsy' camp in a horse drawn caravan. More or less nobody ever spoke to them because parents forbade it and teachers quietly tolerated it. Good start.
When I went to Cambridge at 18 I had a sarf London working class accent, came from a council estate and, sin of sins, had a bursary for 'gifted poor children' in their terms. Fellow students mocked and even physically got at me. I had a little crowd of friends of similar background. The rest rejected us. In many respects I was forced to work twice as hard as others and be 'cleverer' (which I am not). Some of my happiest times have been living 3400 metres up in the Andes in a village of less than 200 people on and off for a couple of years doing research, a few months in a crazy hectic city in Ethiopia of immense population but not a bean between them who were happy and accepted me as me, in general when we lived on a farm in Portugal with my OH's study of child labour in that region for a year and always when I am in Viet Nam. In France I am taken as who and what I am and not judged constantly and have things said to me like 'I am not fit to live in a particular English village because of my politics'. That was told to me by a man who believed Labour were Stalin's child and that somebody who rejected them orally and stood for something far more socialist BUT frequently had a senior Labour MP visit my home was just 'not Christian'. I told him that his God must be English like him, which is probably th eonly agreement I ever solicited from him! So I have developed my distaste to the point that my non-English life partner also wanted out and I said "Let's go" or words to that effect. Within a year it fell in our laps and we went.
The idea of work for me has always been that it is part of my life...an integral part. I love my job, I grew up in the UK and was schooled in a system that made me think I could do anything...not the same as France where the school system allows you to choose a career..and believe me...you cant just change your mind.. for some reason...Goodness knows why....its not done in France. My kids were all brought up to believe in the importance of work...as something fulfilling. I am a nurse, my husband a doctor...kids are teachers/designers...and we all love our jobs...I dont see it as a separate part of my life...work is just one bit of it...
Tsk...Brian...really....I would say that without explanation...just a negative comment that means little... what on earth did they do to you in the UK that you hate it so much???
Oh Patsie....your comment about you can only have one career is one of the things that really has always winded me up about France....the answer to so many questions in France is 'no'...no follow up explanation...just 'no'...well sorry...that may work for French people who have gone through a school system that doesnt ecourage asking questions and thinking for yourself...but boy...if I had kids in the school system here...I would be terrified...that their options would be so limited and for no reason other than some jobsworth decides you can only have one career..no wonder all the bright young people move to the UK or US!
So the idea that we work to live doesn't suit you?
It will be interesting to see how France survives...maybe change the name of the website to this! with a 35 hour week ingrained now....an inclination to retire early....dare I say.....an inclination to cash in hand....France isnt a 'hot' country... where there is an expectation of Manyana, Manyana..it is supposedly a major player in Europe and that requires a good fiscal balance sheet...the lack of Entrepreneurial spirit....and I know I will be shouted down...but a major European country that closes for 2 hours at lunchtime...really? even Spain is getting its act together and working the kind of hours that exist elsewhere in the world...and giving up its two hours lunch. I know that most ex pats come to France to be 'laid back'...and enjoy the lack of activity...but a country cant continue to exist doing this in the future...France has an anti entrepreneurial attitude...if you want to open a business...they will make it as difficult as possible...France has the possibility to be a rich country....but prefers to be the lazy man of Europe...time will tell, but I dont think France will be able to continue this for much longer....and can I just confirm that actually I enjoy working...I always have...I have a good work ethic...expect to earn to keep myself....and dont count the minutes to leaving time...there is nothing wrong with that...much better than leaving the office halfway through a phone call because its 5pm...and I have seen that done in France!
No worries Joe, thick skinned as a tortoise me. Same to yooze for Boxing day. Ron
Good on you Joe! To be serious for one precious moment. I would truly lose my marbles if I did not have some brevity. Work in child research (my OH too) is often unpleasant, we get very deep insights into other unpleasantnesses such as economics and government policies in several countries at a time. Most of it horribly depressing and issues like French entrepreneurialism actually affect me as an AE on top. Laughter and funny people have kept me sane for many years and I intend to stay that way, especially at this point in remarkably bad economic and political times...
Now where are those marbles? Have a good year my friend and let yourself go, even when it's bad for a moment or two, light shines out of sh*t!