I agree the French system is better than the British Paul (and maybe that’s one reason it tends to get better government) - but it is of course true that many of the votes ‘for’ Macron were really more votes against LePen. I know people here that voted for Macron, and absolutely hate him !
Yes, people vote for someone they hate the least, rather then the one they like the most
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Yes - I tend to think democracy is a poor means to achieve good government - but a damn good way to get rid of bad government !
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Well said John, but it’s too late to go back and redo. We are stuck with this disaster for both peoples from England and Europe.
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I have noticed that a rabid brexiteer relative has suddenly started to turn against the so called policies and acts of the likes of Fartage,Johbo and Greasy Smogg etc. I could not speak to him without being quoted rubbish on immigration and money paid to Europe in the millions each week so we fell out but recently he has responded a bit more coherently and against current government and their policies. The trouble too, is all these brexiters are such hypocrites and coming to Europe for their holidays says it all!
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No we can’t go back and redo, but there is no reason why a staged return of the UK to the EU should not be possible - for example starting with Single Market membership and free movement would undo an awful lot of the damage caused by Brexit while still allowing the Leavers to feel they haven’t been forced into a complete U-Turn.
It will take a good number of years but public opinion has moved very notably in that direction, and I think with a new Labour Government that is able to advocate more sensible policies having won a big majority at the next election (rather than hedging as they are doing at the moment to avoid losing Brexiteer Labour voters) then I think it can be done.
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Also worth bearing in mind that governments always like to get the most contentious issues passed early (so the controversy has faded by the next election) - so maybe we can expect progress in the next 2-3 years? Not EU membership - that will take a lot longer - but dynamic alignment, followed fairly swiftly I think by single market and customs union membership.
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“Rejoin the Single Market” is an idea that sounds very reasonable - I’d certainly support it myself.
But it’s worth pausing for thought - it’s not that easy - the SM isn’t like the local gym with half a dozen membership packages on the shelf.
All full membership is via the EEA - which means either EU membership (impossible presently, vanishingly unlikely this decade, call back in 15-20 years) or EFTA membership.
The latter was much talked about during and shortly after the referendum - it might even have been possible in the 2016–2017 time frame had the UK government not swung quickly to hard Brexit but even then there was concern that the UK economy was too large to add without significant disruption and there was nervousness about the fact that we might just want to use EFTA as a springboard to a hard Brexit, causing disruption on entry and at least as much disruption on exit probably only a few years later.
Add to that the clear bad faith that the UK has exhibited in negotiations and I can’t see the EFTA nations welcoming the UK with open arms.
There has been recent talk of a “Swiss Style” arrangement - the problem with that is that the EU would prefer that not even the Swiss had a “Swiss Style” relationship as there is constant negotiation and renegotiation on both sides - I very much doubt they would be willing to offer anything like that for the UK.
Then there is the Deep and Comprehensive Free Trade Area, that isn’t SM membership as such - at best it suggests that the EU might be willing to do something bespoke if we ask nicely, but I certainly can’t see the Tories doing that and Starmer has committed Labour to not pursuing SM membership.
The problem here is that it requires Starmer to explicitly go back on his recent remarks regarding SM and CU membership as well as FoM - given that his “USP” is how honourable he is as a politician that will be difficult.
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I think that is the huge stumbling block for any tentative rapprochement.
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Absolutely, I think that the EU would be wise to wait for a protracted period of political sanity before entertaining readmitting the EU.
In fact, as I’ve said before, I don’t think we should - although I do thing we should join the customs union and, if possiible, the single market. Ideally as a stand-alone thing not involving EFTA.
It would give use the economic benefits - which is all we really wanted and not commit us to the political project which we always railed against.
Yes, it makes us a “rule taker” - but any trade with the EU requires following EU regulations and standards so that’s inescapable - in any case influence can still be had with “soft” politics - we used to be pretty good at that before the lunatics took over the asylum.
Starmer is almost as big a liar as Johnson. He has reversed almost every single commitment he made to the Labour Party membership during his leadership campaign.
He will be better than the Tories, no doubt - but never, ever believe he means what he says !
He’s a politician after all.
Perhaps it is difficult for politicians to be honest - though a lot of the reason for that is that the electorate doesn’t do nuance.
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It was mentioned in the papers last week that the Uk government was talking about a Swiss style deal with Europe. But this was later written off.
Having watched a number of Phil Moorhouse’s videos, I can see the sense in Starmer taking the line that he has - he can promise the moon and the stars, but it will mean bugger all unless he can get into power and deliver upon it.
The thinking is that he is ‘pandering’ to the swing voters who would be put off by blatant promises of re-joining or SM or CU. Play the cards close to the chest… Give hints at what ‘could’ be done (so that those who really follow the political thinking can get a clearer picture) without causing panic amongst those who live on soundbites and headlines for their facts.
And in any case, whatever is said today matters not a jot in Policy terms - THAT will crystallise when the Manifesto is published . THEN we will know where Labour stand - but I will bet a Pound to a Euro that the Manifesto will not CATEGORICALLY state HOW or WHEN we would re-join, or attempt SM or CU alignment. That will be worded in such away that the end goal can be reached without being accused of breaking Manifesto commitments.
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Yes.
Starmer’s a not-very-exciting arch pragmatist, I think. Cautious by nature and trained to think how an opponent will behave, I imagine he is going to wait until the weight of the evidence against Brexit has created a sufficient level of opinion against it … but as to what he does with that, it’s anyone’s guess. Someone has already pointed out that the Tories and the Press have already trashed our reputation as a country, and we’ll need to rebuild that first.
Mainly good news - but still a bit depressing that many fell for the lie that the UK’s vaccination programme wouldn’t have been possible inside the EU - and it has stuck. Evidence again that a simple oft-repeated lie - hardly challenged by the media - wins out over the rather more complicated truth.
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Agree re: vaccination but the fact remains that (equating "Don’t know "to “would vote the same way”) the implication is that, had people known at the time what they now do then it would have only been 48:52 in favour of Remain.
*That* is just as depressing, frankly.
What’s even worse is that 7% of those that voted remain would now vote leave. A bit of info on their motivation would be interesting.
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Quite.
It is possible that some misinterpreted the question.
It is possible that some feel that the EU is better off without the UK being a pain and would have voted out for that reason.