But the Welsh always took a cynical view of the supposed benefits of infrastructure schemes. A good example was the Severn crossing. Everyone could see that toll booths were on the English side!
I think you’re wrong about this Paul - I think the ‘culture war’ - the xenophobia etc you mention - as far as the leaders of the ‘leave’ campaign were concerned - was never more than a deliberate distraction from what was fundamentally an economic project - and I include in this culture war aspect the illusion in the UK that what Labour offered was ‘ultra left wing’. This is prcisely what the UK electorate fell for.
What Labour proposed in the 2017 election would merely have brought the UK back a little way towards the European model - far from being ‘left wing’, as far as I’m aware there was absolutely nothing in there that’s not to be found working well in many other western European countries, often regarded here on the Continent not as political at all, but common-sense-consensus (but then, I live in a country now where you would like to live, and where over 55% of the economy is state-owned, over another 10% is otherwise socially owned - co-ops, etc - and the less-than-a-third that remains in the private sector does not generally follow the financialised remote shareholder model of anglo-saxon capitalism).
I recently re-read Raymond Williams’ ‘Border Country’ trilogy, which follows some Welsh families through much of the 20th century, especially the 20s through to the 70s - brilliant insights into the fundamental core-peripheral economic systems of England and Wales that appear to create economic activity in Wales, but in fact disable it, and undermine the leadership that would indeed be needed to alter this basic relationship.
I agree there was distraction but it was never an economic project - no reputable economist thought that Brexit would be an benefit to the country.
However, we have reached the point now where it is all just dogma and face saving.
I almost wish that the motivation is financial gain for (some of) the individuals involved - otherwise they have destroyed a nation for no reason at all.
I thought it was “just” a misguided economic project but now I think it’s become something much more sinister. I find the callous indifference of the ERG to “normal” peoples’ interests quite disconcerting. They are prepared to have an adventure, an experiment in reengineering Britain which could have a catastrophic on ordinary punters, with little risk to them and unspecified benefit to all.
Agree - I think that it was always there but it is now worse. there is no longer any interest in avoiding the damage it will do to the nation, especially on top of Covid (which is being handled abysmally as you might expect for a government of none of the talents).
I think the most illuminating light in which to see brexit - along with other ‘populisms’ - is as a fracture within the establishment, the ruling class - or whatever you want to call the neo-liberal consensus that dominated in many countries - and let’s admit - heavily influenced the EU - since the Reagan/Thatcher years.
They all see the neo-liberal project fraying, but have a sharply divided response. The division is naked even among billionaires - between those now advocating higher taxes etc to save stable societies, and the ‘disaster capitalists’ that think ultra-rich individuals and corporations can really make a grab for unchallenged power from their gated communities and vast estates in South Island.
Purely because in 1301 in order to hammer home the nail of annexation, and underline Wales’ status as a possession, Edward I of England decided his son and heir should be so titled.
Camilla Parker-Bowles had a mansion near the farm I worked on at Brecon, so the Prince of Wales probably visited a few times. 
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But only when her old man was away from home! 
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IIRC Andrew PB was a friend of the POW so they probably formed a cosy Ménage à trois 
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Having wrote that yesterday - look what 's in today’s Guardian…
Meanwhile, Johnson’s now trying to generate the illusion of wanting to negotiate a trade deal with the EU with sixty year old advertising slogans that were around years before he was even born (though I’m surely not the only SF poster who had a tiger tail hanging from their bike’s handlebars!) At moments like this it’s excruciatingly embarrassing to be British.
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I think this sums up my concerns…
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Bore da,
The welsh thingy is as follows: when you look at the places where the English population is high, West Wales, you find leave. When you look at where the EU came in and plowed the people into the ground with Objective One areas, which was all fur coat and no knickers, you find leave. I have just left one of the most deprived areas in Europe, namely Rhondda Cynon Taff. When people are not listened to, time and again, and money is wasted on statues and fancy lighting instead of what matters, they will turn their back. The most succinct remark I’ve heard was:" Cause we voted for Brexit, doesn’t matter, we’ve got sod all to start with, so if it goes tits up it won’t make any difference to South Wales. " But the people wanted to believe the big red bus lies. Maybe you have to spend time there to really understand. Due to the depression lasting a good 40 years now, the level of education is rock bottom. Hopelessness rules. People were desperate to believe the lies of the pied piper, they were promised a future. Lies, perhaps, but someone someone said he would bring light into the darkness. Poor people are ignored and exploited the world over, this is their moment of hope. As stated, round here it can only get better.
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Hope you are right, but I fear that rock bottom is still away to go.
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That sounds like “famous last words” to me Gudrun. The pessimist in me believes things are never so bad that they can’t get worse. That’s the whole basis for my carpe diem attitude to life. Enjoy the moment 
I agree Mike… this is only the beginning of the beginning. The starting pistol is raised and the ERG are crouching at the ready.
John,
I entirely agree with you. I’m only relaying the fatalistic attitudes of the disenfranchised. Believe me, it has been a great deal worse in the past. South Wales during the strikes was a thing to behold. I’m not expressing any opinions here, just observing. As a german, I stand by aghast at the level of hopelessness in the valleys.
There’s some truth in this - it reminded me of one of the most enlightening comments I overheard on the brexit debate - actually in North-East England - not so different from parts of Wales - a young woman talking to what I took to be her Dad, saying ‘I don’t know which way to vote’ - and him replying ‘Well, things are really bad, so vote for change.’
The irony is, of course, that the 40-year-long disaster inflicted on these places was Thatcherism - and (as I wrote earlier in this thread) brexit is just another step further down this American free-market-free-for-all drain. The obvious fault in thinking ‘round here it can only get better’ is that in the real world, it can, in fact, get much, much worse.
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