This is where the Corona Virus came from

@anon48648089 Anne, I think I understand your personal revulsion at the Chinese practice of hunting, slaughtering and eating creatures that would not be relished in the West, but unless you live in China you can scarcely be a reasonable judge of those that do those things, because you seem incapable of putting yourself in their shoes, of understanding their culture, of facing their hardships,of empathising with their wish to feed their families and see their children thrive.

If you have lived in the developing world, and in a huge country with logistic, communication, educational and administrative obstacles and impediments to overcome, you might take a different view, and IMO a more adult and constructive one.

There are huge areas of the world where there is a constant undersupply of protein, an essential growth and repair nutrient. No resources for the husbandry of livestock for food exist in many arid areas of the world, and even beans and pulses are hard to grow. People take protein where they can glean it, and they make whatever they can afford go a very long way. Milk is a luxury, and very few can afford to buy it or keep a milk-yielding animal.

Having lived for several years in Africa, I know how prevalent is protein-deficiency in young children, where one in every five die before the age of five from protein lack. Eating a meat meal in Africa is a very rare event. Insects and grubs are widely consumed when they are to be found, and only at certain short times in the year.

I expect, though I don’t know personally from direct experience, that Chinese rural folk are as careful of animal life as any people on earth, and more than most. They waste nothing and value traditional methods of conservation. I hope I am not wasting my time in bringing my thoughts to your notice.

Above all, I entreat you to moderate your language and examine your thoughts and emotions before condemning the Chinese people, or their political representatives, in ugly and demeaning terms. They are human beings, people like you, with the same hopes, fears, strengths and frailties as the rest of us. They do not deserve your contempt. You can do better than that, I think, I hope.

PS Even the coronavirus should escape our hatred. It is a life form, and acts on the primeval imperative in all life forms to reproduce and to survive. We provide the necessary medium for its self-propagation, and it no more or less selfish in that regard than we are, when we feast off living organisms of all genres. The Chinese did not inflict the virus on us, it found us by way of a natural process of adaptation to new circumstances. Like we did in “seeking pastures new”. :hugs::house_with_garden:

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Perhaps Peter you did not see the episode of Blue Planet 2 where sharks were caught just for their fins, to make soup, and thrown back into the sea, some of them still alive.
This is not people suffering from a lack of protein, it is cruel slaughter for a minority of people who are prepared to pay for so called, ‘delicacies’.
Tthe majority of people in India live on a vegetarian diet which proves that the there is no need to eat exotic species.
Ebola came from eating bush meat!

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I agree fully with that shark-fin comment, @Jane_Williamson, and thank you for pointing it out.

Such hideously cruel treatment of sentient and defenceless creatures is not exclusively ‘foreign’ either. I am sure people will be able point to examples of corresponding cruelty closer to home.

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Hi Peter, I am totally with Jane on this one. There are unspeakably horrible things that are done to animals in China. I apologise in advance for the gruesome images.

Moon bears are kept in crush cages and have their bile extracted from them. Sometimes they are kept on a ‘farm’ sometimes in a shed at the bottom of someone’s garden. There have been cases of bears kept for 30 years like this. Can you imagine the horror?

And it is the prevalence of factory farming that is pushing more people into breeding exotic animals for money and they are being pushed closer to the forest where there is then the subsequent danger of viruses spreading into the food chain.

We in the west are not much better. Maybe the misery endured by our farm animals is much more short-lived but consider this: pigs are as intelligent as a three year old human being and they are kept in vile conditions. The pictures below are from a farm in the UK and Germany. People working in slaughter houses often suffer from PTSD. In the United States poor and often undocumented immigrants working in food product sometimes lose limbs to industrial equipment as the urge for ever greater productivity results in unsafe working conditions.

Humans have a collective responsibility to treat each other and other animals with respect. Disease is just one consequence if they don’t.

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Thanks for this, Marijke, and for joining @Jane_Williamson in redressing the balance in this discussion on the matter. I am personally abashed. :pensive:

I think the distinct move to vegetarianism in the Northern hemisphere is the result of those like you and Jane and many others, notably well-represented here on SF, who campaign for the universal mind of harmlessness towards other sentient creatures.

Peter

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There is no need to feel abashed your post was brilliant in many respects :+1:

Using “bush meat” in the wider sense of wild animals what is the moral distinction between it and sanglier?

Ebola did not “come from” eating bush meat - viruses mutate, it is what they do and sometimes that makes them less fit to infect the original host species and better at affecting another. If by chance that mutated virus can infect a new species it will. Hunting and eating wild animals might increase the chance for a virus to cross from animals to humans but it does not “create” the virus in the first place.

This is the “tree” of mutations so far discovered for SARS-Cov-2, in just a couple of months

Mutations help the virus evade host immunity (it is why there is a need for a new 'flu vaccine every year and immunity to other coronaviruses only lasts a couple of months).

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OK. Ebola came from eating bush meat that had been infected by a mutated virus.
If you do not eat bush meat, end of story.
We will all have to change our way of life in the future.
The rampant consumerism in the West that affects the climate and creates sweat shops in other parts of the world, religions that forbid the use of contraceptives increasing the population.
Wet markets in the Eastern countries bringing together wild animals in cages stacked upon each other and defecating between species will have to be made to stop. There will be an investigation into the cause of this virus and behaviour will have to change.

It is not that simple

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The theory about Covid -19 is that passed from a bat to another animal which was sold at a Chinese wet market and then consumed, patient zero though has never been traced so there’s no concrete proof that’s what actually happened.

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Enormously hard to prove - I think bats are an animal reservoir of coronavirus in that part of the world so that is at least plausible but it could just as easily been a domestic animal instead of a wild one.

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Maybe just coincidence but this is the plot from the 2011 film “Contagion” from Wikipedia -

" Returning from a business trip in Hong Kong, Beth Emhoff has a layover in Chicago and meets a former lover for sex. Two days later, in her family home in suburban Minneapolis, she collapses with seizures. Her husband, Mitch Emhoff, rushes her to the hospital, but she dies of an unknown cause. Mitch returns home and finds that his stepson Clark has died from a similar disease. Mitch is put in isolation but is found to be immune; he is released and returns home to his teenage daughter Jory.

In Atlanta, representatives of the Department of Homeland Security meet with Dr. Ellis Cheever of the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention and express fears that the disease is a bioweapon intended to cause terror over the Thanksgiving weekend. Cheever dispatches Dr. Erin Mears, an Epidemic Intelligence Service officer, to Minneapolis to investigate. Mears traces the outbreak back to Beth. She negotiates with local bureaucrats, who are reluctant to commit resources for a public health response. Mears later becomes infected and dies. As the novel virus spreads, several cities are placed under quarantine, and looting and violence break out.

At the CDC, Dr. Ally Hextall determines the virus is a mix of genetic material from pig- and bat-borne viruses. Work on a cure stalls because scientists cannot discover a cell culture within which to grow the newly identified MEV-1. University of California professor Dr. Ian Sussman violates orders from Cheever to destroy his samples, and identifies a usable MEV-1 cell culture using bat cells. Hextall uses the breakthrough to begin work on a vaccine. Other scientists determine the virus is spread by fomites, with a basic reproduction number of four when the virus mutates; they project that 1 in 12 of the world population will be infected, with a 25–30% mortality rate.

Conspiracy theorist Alan Krumwiede posts videos about the virus on his blog. In one video, he claims he has cured himself of the virus using a homeopathic cure derived from forsythia. People seeking forsythia overwhelm pharmacies. During a television interview, Krumwiede discloses that Cheever secretly informed friends and family to leave Chicago before it was quarantined. Cheever is informed he will be investigated. Krumwiede, having faked his illness to boost sales of forsythia, is arrested for conspiracy and securities fraud.

Using an attenuated virus, Hextall identifies a possible vaccine. To cut out the lengthy time it would take to obtain informed consent from infected patients, Hextall inoculates herself with the experimental vaccine and visits her infected father. She does not contract MEV-1 and the vaccine is declared a success. The CDC awards vaccinations by lottery based on birthdate. By this time, the death toll has reached 2.5 million in the U.S. and 26 million worldwide.

Earlier, in Hong Kong, World Health Organization epidemiologist Dr. Leonora Orantes and public health officials comb through tapes of Beth’s contacts in a Macau casino and identify her as the index case. Government official Sun Feng kidnaps Orantes as leverage to obtain MEV-1 vaccine doses for his village, where she remains for months. WHO officials provide them with vaccines and she is released. When Orantes learns the vaccines given to the village were placebos, she runs to warn them.

In a flashback, a bulldozer knocks down a banana tree in a rainforest in China, disturbing some bats. One bat finds shelter in a pig farm and drops a piece of banana, which is eaten by a pig. The pig is slaughtered and prepared by a chef in a Macau casino, who shakes hands with Beth, transmitting the virus to her."

Spooky!

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If this helps the discussion in Australia stablehands and a trainer were infected with a virus transmitted by fruit bats to their horses. Australians don’t eat horses nor bats, so we can safely discount the connection between the virus and and a wet market selling wild bats. I do not support horse racing by the way, I condemn the industrial slaughter of so many horses that don’t “win” or make money for their owners. But the point is the spread of an epidemic can’t be blamed solely on one country but on markets, and on the unhygienic social and eating habits of humans. (Also, if we think about it, obesity due to sugar is pandemic killing millions of people through diabetes and heart disease, and you could blame McDonalds as the major vector if you thought that was a simple answer to the problem. ) Anyway in the case of the Australian Hendra Virus, the blame is the international horse racing industry as it created the perfect conditions for animal to human transmission. But who would have ever imagined thoroughbred racing horses were “filthy”? We blame poor human hygiene in an environment where fresh food is slaughtered and prepared (note - we sell live crabs and lobsters in Sydney.) In my local seafood market in Sydney I saw a worker cough into his own lunch and then spit on the ground under his feet around the time Covid 19 arrived here. I have never been to Wuhan’s wet market but the conditions for rapid transmission of a novel virus are most probably extremely high, but perhaps not much higher than what you experience at a corporate cocktail party - exposed foodstuffs, crowded, people coughing and not covering their mouths, cross contamination of salads with meat… We have that here - it’s called a cruise ship buffet lunch. So we blame international companies that run cruise ships, not a country. People who attend rave parties and share joints are also to blame for the spread of COVID here. People bunking in hostels because they can’t afford a single room. Get angry, and blame, blame, blame others and follow conspiracy threads if it helps you get through your self-isolation. Here is some info on Hendra Virus, from https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/Infectious/factsheets/Pages/hendra_virus.aspx

What is Hendra virus?

  • Hendra virus is a virus that infects large fruit bats (flying foxes).
  • Occasionally the virus can spread from flying foxes to horses and horses can then pass the infection on to humans. A small number of people who had very close contact with infected horses have developed Hendra virus infection.
  • A single dog showed evidence of exposure to Hendra virus on a property where three horses developed infection in July 2011.
  • There is no evidence of Hendra virus occurring naturally in any other species.
  • Hendra virus was discovered following an outbreak of illness in a large racing stable in the suburb of Hendra, Brisbane in 1994.
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Of course, in Wuhan the interspecies transmission of COVID occurred because of the frequent AND unhygienic intermingling of live wild animals and humans. But in Peru Avian flu and N1H1 spread in mixed farming of pigs and domestic fowl, and from pig farmers intermingling with and feeding dead chickens to their pigs. In this case the original wild origin of the virus came via the domesticated fowl. See https://bmcinfectdis.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/1471-2334-12-58

This is a great article on why Chinese “wet markets” should remain open: https://theconversation.com/why-shutting-down-chinese-wet-markets-could-be-a-terrible-mistake-130625?gclid=EAIaIQobChMIqqPg9PHE6AIVB5SPCh0jLwa0EAAYASAAEgLJifD_BwE

Riveting synopsis @Mark_Rimmer , I was on the edge of my seat and stopped guzzling pop-corn with my fingers in the bag.

Pity you didn’t give us a spoiler warning, though. Now I know the bat did it… :bat::unamused:

Or was it the pig…? :pig2::thinking::upside_down_face:

The film was on the telly very recently. I’m sure that the timing had nothing to do with current events & in no way was shown to fuel the imagination of the general public… er.

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Jane, we should clearly try to help primates avoid catching Ebola too, which requires an immense effort to protect their habitats.! I agree that in wet markets hygiene practices are sub-optimal. But with the wet market debate, there is the argument that trying to close these markets creates a Black Market anyway. Another argument is that closing them will destroy a large part of a food and farming industry that Chinese rural people rely on to earn a basic living. In China these wet markets mainly sell “bred wild animals”, and a smaller portion of animals hunted down in the wild. It’s like a goose or a pheasant in an English market: is it wild or “game”, or is it domesticated enough to be considered acceptable? What about wild boar in France? What about oysters? One bad one can kill. Putting aside the rights of sanglier to live in peace, how safe is it to eat compared to factory farmed pig? What about Kangaroo meat? Some dieticians and naturalists believe Kangaroo should substitute for cattle in Australia as it is far less damaging to the land than cattle and sheep. Indigenous people had been living on “bush meat” for 40000 years and their population was healthy until the White man came with the sheep and cattle, sugar, and alcohol.

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That may well be the case, Mark, but I now have ruminative thoughts around “Do bats sneeze?” and “Do bat’s swoop with their mouths full, and - if so - should they?”

And ought I not, at 81, to have outgrown this tendency to whimsical imaginings? :thinking:

Naming something nasty with an ethnic category denigrates that category, or stigmatises them unfairly. If it were called Wuhan Covid, it stigmatises citizens of Wuhan. Spanish flu was not Spanish in origin and killed more Brits and French than Spaniards.
Read this: https://www.sapiens.org/column/conflicted/coronavirus-name/

Adding this - https://thehill.com/changing-america/respect/equality/490373-attacks-on-asian-americans-at-about-100-per-day-due-to

Trump’s “Chinese virus” comment does have consequences on the safety and wellbeing of Chinese and Asian Americans. It’s a dog whistle.

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Just watched the movie again … it gave me night mares. But one has to draw parallels and I truly hope civilization prevails