Can anyone point me in the direction of the rules.
How long can I stay in France per year if I flit between uk and France. If I buy a holiday home is there a limit I.e continuous days or total amount in a given time.
Is it different if I use a motorhome or touring caravan.
David
In fact the moment we have to pay any direct social charges we are also liable for taxes, which is often far quicker than anything like taxe foncière or habitation. As soon as we are liable for tax we are fiscal residents. In the UK non-domicile usually means that a person is known to be 'permanently' resident outside the UK. That is how the wealthy tax dodgers have been so often referred to as 'non-domiciles' although they spend a lot of time there. A non-domicile may be resident somewhere else but have a home (or several) in the UK but the overseas one is considered his/her normal residency. It sort of means that the UK house is not their main home and little more than that. It is one of those things designed to drive us nuts trying to understand what the difference is and every time it is explained comes out like a nonsense limerick!The FT had a thing about that last year in which Branson was used, basically to describe him as a hands on head of a large corporation who spends relatively little time in the UK or any of Virgin and offshoot companies' offices because he mainly works from home, which is in the UK. They were using him as an an example of and described him as a 'non-dom'. Confused yet? I am even explaining it because I have no clue why and how it works. None of us, I get the feeling, are in that league though, so don't worry.
Hi Brian
Not trying to do anything illegal. Reading the forum has taught me that the French do have a complicated system and will jump on you if they find out. Just want to get all the answers so we can make up our mind as to what we can do. It seems a minefield as to what you have to pay and for what.
Torn between a holiday home to use as much as we legally can whilst staying a U.K. resident. Not interested in letting, we are hoarders and not very house proud. Alternative would be just pop over with the touring van as often as possible. Would prefer the first option.
David
I agree, I forgot to say those people above had a gite and two rooms as bed and breakfast but never paid a penny tax or anything else. The fact they were not legit simply did not interest them. But when they were burgled they more or less demanded a 24 hour a day investigation with a large troop of gendarmes. When not even fingerprints were taken, somebody told them to report that to the prefecture. That's when the penny dropped and they decided to cut their losses, sell up and go.
We arrived in France last month and wanted to register with the Mairie, mainly to have proof of address for the bank, getting a mobile phone etc. We popped round (it's only next door) but were told they don't register newcomers. We just came away with yellow bags for recycling and full instructions on where to deposit our household rubbish!
Personally I think they deserve it. Have seen it happen to someone who ran a UK business from here and even though it was an awful thing to go through, why should I have to pay all the charges here and someone else not?
Me too. One couple pleading that they had lived here for eight years without any problem when they were burgled and then could do nothing because they had never bothered to insure here and the company in England only had them covered for a holiday second home. I don't about the ins and outs of insurance business. However, when they sold up and left they created a row about having to pay various taxes on the basis of them never having lived here 'properly' because they used to spend a few weeks a year (four weeks or the likes) in the UK and had official information that said that made them UK residents.
Just looked at a departmental site to see the update, 4 October 2014, now that REALLY is out of date ;-)
Yes Tracy, and it is the 'pretenders' who appear to make up 99% of disinformation, especially telling people such nonsense as details on the gouv.fr website are inaccurate or out of date.
Exactly my point Debra, it is not a question of the individual deciding, it is the French authorities who decide, regardless of what your other country says. There are so many people living here, pretending to be resident elsewhere and believing the laws do not apply to them.
It made no difference to us really and he was automatically given a SS number so it was a good thing. Considering it was over 10yrs ago and we are still here it was academic really.
No, it is 183 days in one country, in this case France, you could be out of the UK permanently and still make up that length of time here and the rest in other places.
As for the campers, pay no attention if anybody says don't worry about the MOT, insurance and so on because you are abroad. People get away with it for years on end, but strictly speaking any vehicle here needs to be tested and re-registered here in France. You are allowed to keep UK number plates for up to six months if you are a non-resident and only up to one month for French residents. The time allowed for French residents can be extended up to a maximum of three months if the vehicle need to be approved through the DRIRE (Direction régionale de l'industrie,de la recherche et de l'environnement). In the past time limits have not been strictly adhered to but insurance laws are getting tighter and this should no longer be the any longer. If somebody says they have had their UK car over here for 10 years (they exist and longer even) then do not be tempted to do as they do. When the French fine people they mean business and it hurts. It therefore depends on your insurance more than just about everything else.
Wow
Lots of info,lots of food for thought. I presume the 183 days is total away from Uk. Just wondered how the continuous campers away for 1 to 2 year fare. They have to come back once a year for MOT reasons. You can get extended insurance for continuous driving abroad. Costly but available.
Will have to post on the motorhome forum to get some answers on that side.
We will have to have a rethink. 6 months here and 6 months there seems most likely or possibly 3 months on 3 off continuously.
Will have to look in to the costs again.
Ho hum
Thanks
David
Thanks, Tracy, one of my favourite sites too although, like you, as I've been here for yonks non of that applies to me. Agree with all the info in English - get it straight to the horses mouth and all that ;-)
Ithought things were getting mixed up with the minimum 5 year residency requirement before applying for naturalisation.
Quite right, although fiscality is always a large part of what permanence is about, at the same time it is used for defining where a person can be extradited, particularly when a multinational warrant is out against somebody. That is not the only example but the one I know best (not as a personal experience though). The 183 days simply defines country of normal residency rather than anything else.
As Alan says, the French can decide if you are fiscally resident, irrelevant of how many days you spend here - I know as they did it to my husband ie he was married to me, we didn't even own a house, we only rented.
I wish somebody would point that out to people who are setting the cat among the pigeons with 'what happens in the UK leaves the EU' as though there would be a mass expulsion of UK citizens. I did it once but nobody wanted to know...
After five years you are entitled to permanent residence in France, without conditions. Until then you must be employed, sel femployed, unemployed or prove that you have private health insurance and a minimum income to support yourself.
See my favourite source of steadfast accurate information in French
http://vosdroits.service-public.fr/particuliers/N123.xhtml,
Any information I find in English, I treat with a pinch of salt as it is always an interpretation by someone, not necessarily accurate or up to date.
Missing something here, Debra, why 5 years...?
It seems that Brussels recommend voluntarily registering as soon as taking up residence in all EU countries, except the four where residence visas are still required, in order to make life easier. In some countries, registration at an address (even as a hotel guest in reality) applies to everybody and it would appear that local authorities (i.e. the mairie) has responsibility for knowing who is in their commune, at which address and so on anyway. Unless they go round checking it can only be done by going to them. However, it is optional like having the residency registered with the document in hand to make certain one is accepted as a resident, including in their home country. I must admit we did of that and assume the mairie found out our details by osmosis ;-)
ouf! missed all that then (didn't realise it was just that complicated for others as mine are french and born here obviously making life much easier).
That's the first time I've heard of having to register too, once you're here and working/declaring and paying your impôts then it isn't necessary but I can see the situation where nouveaux arrivants might want a document saying that they are resident.
David, you can find the UK-France double taxation treaty quite easily on the UK website - just do a search.
The 183 days is not 100% correct - France can treat you as resident if you simply spend more time in France than any other country. Spending patterns/locations is a key element of evidence.