You really do live in an alternative universe. The will of the people against the British constitution and people like yourself who have no respect for the law or those who maintain it. Give me strength.
3 Likes
David everything is so black and white with you , no shades of grey, which I suppose gives you comfort, but the trouble is life really isnāt always like that. The law has always been open to interpretation (or misinterpretation), why else would there be the higher courts to appeal to, if that isnāt the caseā¦?
"people, like yourself, who have no respect for the lawā¦ā a statement based on what ?
So itās not the law thatās the problem, itās people and the lawyers
Have you never heard the expression āthe law is an ass !ā actually a misquote of Mr Bumble, one of Dickenās characters in Oliver Twist who said āthe law is a assāā¦explained here, if you are interestedā¦
Charles Dickens is a great example to cite because he had direct experience of how the noble aims of the orginal people who formulated the laws, could be utterly distortedā¦
DICKENS AND THE LAW
Charles Dickensā criticism of lawyers and the courts was informed by his own experience with the legal system. In 1827, at the age of fifteen, he went to work for the law office of Ellis and Blackmore as a junior clerk. It was there that he saw the darker side of the law, evidenced in places like Fleet Prison, Newgate, and the Marshalsea (where his own father was imprisoned for debt).
Dickens later taught himself shorthand and became a court reporter in the Lord Chancellorās Court. Perhaps it was during this time that he began to formulate his opinion of the Chancery Court, leading him to eventually write:
āThe one great principle of the English law is to make business for itself. There is no other principle distinctly, certainly, and consistently maintained through all its narrow turnings. Viewed by this light, it becomes a coherent scheme, and not the monstrous maze the laity are apt to think it.ā
His depiction of the case of Jarndyce V Jarndyceā¦seems to me to typify the plight of Brexiters in relation to the EU and the likely threat of being bogged down interminably in ādue processāā¦within Parliamentā¦
"The documents in Jarndyce and Jarndyce were the stuff of legend. Dickens wrote that upon the announcement of the Jarndyce case in court there was a ābringing in of great heaps, and piles, and bags full of papersā and that once the ātwenty-three gentlemen in wigsā had argued for a bit and had the case āreferred back,ā the copious documents were ābundled up again before the clerks had finished bringing them in.ā
To top it all off, the process by which the court functioned was so technical and its procedures were so slow that āthe length of time taken to decide even uncontested cases amounted to a denial of justice.ā This was a system ripe for abuse and certainly in need of reform.
and moreā¦that could easily be re-inacted in laying open every aspect of the Brexit negotiations ot Parliament as some people (most likely Remoaners)ā¦
"The masters were court officials who were paid handsomely for reviewing assembled evidence and reporting as to whether it was fit to bring before the Chancellor.
The master, in himself, had only the power appointed to him by the judge and an enormous amount of time and money could be wasted in a case as the master and judge referred matters back and forth between them. In addition, the masters were able to review all items in their private chambers, assisted by chief clerks, who in turn were assisted by their own clerks and so on. Idleness and inefficiency were the order of the day. Making this system even more inefficient, no decision from the master was final and it might always be cycled back up to the Chancellor. In writing about the abuses of the masters, Dickens said that:
āIn trickery, evasion, procrastination, spoliation, botheration, under false pretenses of all sorts, there are influences that can never come to any good.ā
In fact we donāt have to go as far back as Dickens to find other unedifying examples of Lawyers behaving in a āless than proper,ā or incompetent/ inappropriate fashionā¦Hereās a few examplesā¦
*and from a left wing rag as opposed to the DM, which I know you object toā¦**ā¦
And finally, to end in a more light-hearted mannerā¦(but of course a joke is always based on some degree of truth)ā¦ā¦
Q: Why did God invent lawyers?
A: So that real estate agents would have someone to look down on.
Q: Whatās the difference between a good lawyer and a bad lawyer?
A: A bad lawyer makes your case drag on for years. A good lawyer makes it last even longer.
Q: What are lawyers good for?
A: They make used car salesmen look good.
Q: What do dinosaurs and decent lawyers have in common?
A: Theyāre both extinct.
Q: What do you call 25 attorneys buried up to their chins in cement?
A: Not enough cement.
Q: Why wonāt sharks attack lawyers?
A: Professional courtesy.
The lawyer is standing at the gate to Heaven and St. Peter is listing his sins:
- Defending a large corporation in a pollution suit where he knew it was guilty.
- Defending an obviously guilty murderer because the fee was high.
- Overcharging fees to many clients.
- Persecuting an innocent woman because a scapegoat was needed in a controversial case.
And the list went on for quite awhile.
The lawyer objects and begins to argue his case. He admits all these things, but argues, āWait, Iāve done some charity in my life also.ā St. Peter looks in his book and says,āYes, I see. Once you gave a dime to a panhandler and once you gave an extra nickel to the shoeshine boy, correct?ā
The lawyer gets a smug look on his face and replies, āYes.ā
St. Peter turns to the angel next to him and says, āGive this guy 15 cents and tell him to go to hell.ā
&
A surgeon, an architect an a lawyer are having a heated barroom discussion concerning which of their
professions is actually the oldest profession. The surgeon says: āSurgery IS the oldest profession. God took a rib from Adam to create Eve and you canāt go back further than that.ā
The architect says: āHold on! In fact, God was the first architect when he created the world out of chaos in 7 days, and you canāt go back any further than THAT!ā
The lawyer smiles and says: āGentlemen, Gentlemenā¦who do you think created the CHAOS!!!ā
&
Five surgeons were taking a coffee break and discussing their work.
The first said, āI think accountants are the easiest to operate on; you open them up and everything inside is numbered.ā
The second said, āI think librarians are the easiest to operate on; you open them up and everything inside is in alphabetical order.ā
The third said, āI like to operate on electricians; you open them up and everything inside is color-coded.ā
The fourth surgeon said, āI like Engineersā¦they always understand when you have a few parts left over at the endā¦ā
The fifth one said, 'I like to operate on lawyers; theyāre heartless, spineless, gutless, and their heads and their butts are interchangeable.
2 Likes
Well Paul,
You are of course entitled to your opinion, but I donāt agree with your viewā¦as regards the Brexit situation, ā¦
As I have already said, on some occasions, I donāt agree with certain headlines or articles (and anyone can comment on these online in the DMās caseā¦so you could take them up on what they say if you wanted to ā¦which is something)ā¦
I would think they would be fairly keen not to be suedā¦
As far as Brexit is concerned re immigration,ā¦every country needs a degree of immigration, qualified people with the right skills and attitudes (not islamic fundamentalists looking to turn the UK into an Islamic country over time and impose Sharia Law , or criminals with links to Yardie type gangs, which we have managed to import in the past) and it is mad not to try to control both the level in terms of numbers, as Britain is minute compared to most other European countriesā¦That is not a racist stance at all.
You find most newspapers distasteful, according to your listā¦Where do you get your information about the state of the world from ?
3 Likes
Well there is not even agreement on whether it was legally binding or not and this has been discussed recently on the Daily Politics (which I watch regularly) and so even this is in dispute, to some extentā¦
People who I know voted leave, are in favour of very much more controlled immigration, not to stop it all togetherā¦They want to feel safe and that their culture is not further eroded and they want less pressure on housing and services, jobs etc. Also, they do believe that there is life outside Europe, and wonāt listen to āproject fearā as other European countries are doing just fine thank you outside the EU. I really believe that big changes are ahead for Europe as a whole and in the next 10 to 15yrs the EU as we know it now will not exist (again, see the Stratfor decade forecast)ā¦I am entitled to my considered opinion, just as you are, as the readers of the DM are and as well all are. Only time will tell, I suppose.
I donāt live in the UK now but I have until recently and I know what it like in certain areas of London and other areas where it is very crowded and the original inhabitants feel that there has been a loss of identity of a place because there has been so much concentrated immigration.
There was even a TV programme recently about the last white inhabitants of a part of the East Endā¦mos of the rest had moved out to Essex āLast Whites of the East Endāā¦BBC 1.ā¦Unfortunately, itās not available at the moment on I playerā¦but from what you say you would think this was racist to even make such a programme, but it plainly canāt beā¦and Iām glad we still have some free speech rather than political correctnessā¦which I am glad has lost itās unhealthy powerā¦
Hereās the blurbā¦
"Newham in Londonās East End is home to a tight-knit white working-class community who have lived there for centuries. But over the past 15 years something extraordinary has happened to this cockney tribe - more than half of them have disappeared. Now the few who remain are struggling to hold on to their identity in the place they have always called home.
Newham has been shaped by immigration for generations, but the past 15 years have been defined by it, as Newham welcomed the highest numbers of new residents anywhere in the country. At the same time more than half the white British population have vanished - breaking apart the tight-knit families their community was built on.
A decade of mass immigration and āwhite flightā has brought Newham to its tipping point, and now Newham has the lowest white British population of anywhere in the UK.
Filmed over several months, this documentary records the thoughts, feelings and experiences of the white residents of Newham, as they leave the place where theyāve grown up.
From young mum Leanne, who has made the difficult decision to leave her tight-knit extended family in search of āa better lifeā in Essex, to mixed-race Tony who wants to find somewhere to bring up his baby daughter that feels more like what he knows, these are the stories of people who are struggling with rapid change.
Many cling on to the past, fighting to keep the last places going where the white community meet, like Peter Bell, manager of the East Ham Working Menās Club. This is now a hidden world of tea dances, boxing and drinking in the last club left - an oasis for those left behind.
This thoughtful, reflective film hears these voices for the first time. It uncovers what it really feels like to have society change around you."
3 Likes
Iām assuming that as has been indicated by some politicians, that previous remainers in all parties (except the SNP )would uphold the will of the people as evidenced by the referendum and deliver Brexitā¦
We have a population of about 64 million in the UK maybe, but that would include kidsā¦see thisā¦
for a more accurate picture of thingsā¦
Iām not scared of the future, Iām personally convinced we are going in the right direction for ultimately a better future and I have found plenty of online evidence to support that.
I cant say anymore about it reallyā¦
2 Likes
Good. Please donāt.
3 Likes
Phew! Thatās a relief!
Meanwhile back in the real world of Europe pre-Brexitā¦the effects are already being felt.
My brother runs a successful fruit and veg export business based in Provence. One of his main markets is the UK - has been for over 25 years. Due to the rapid weakening of the Ā£ - many UK customers (wholesalers, supermarkets etc) are ānaturallyā (!) trying to screw their European suppliers for lower prices - weak Ā£ = expensive ā¬.
Of course, the ā¬ prices set by exporters like my brother havenāt changed at all but the poor old UK wholesalers and supermarkets simply canāt absorb, or pass on the price increases due to the weak Ā£, to their UK shoppers.
So, in my brothers case this means he simply diverts his produce to other EU markets unaffected by exchange rates. For the UK wholesalers and supermarkets it means supply lines are becoming more and more difficult to source. Ultimately it will mean massive price increases for the poor old UK shoppers when the UK supermarkets can no longer absorb price fluctuations on imported stock.
Brexit hasnāt even happened yet but already the writing is on the wallā¦be careful what you wish for.
3 Likes
I have to agree with you, Simon. Real world effects are indeed already being felt. Those of us on what was already a dismal pension (my husband, and itās our main source of income) have lost quite badly already with the exchange rate. Our income is down more than 1/4 and we are trying to absorb that loss as costs continue to rise. The hubris of those who clearly dislike immigrants and insist the rest of us fall into line to support their little tantrum is beginning to wear thin.
The connection between Trump supporters and many Brexit supporters is not imaginary.
3 Likes
Are you a Lawyer? Have you gone through the academic rigour necessary to become a Lawyer? Do you work the long hours worked by most Lawyers? Having read you posts I would guess that the answer to all the above questions. Reducing their position to childish jokes just about sums you up. I think that you will find that the real joke is closer to home!
1 Like
@Aquitaine youāre getting dangerously off topic. May I remind you of our guidelines;
If you canāt be civil, donāt reply.
http://www.survivefrance.com/t/argumentum-ad-hominem-survive-france-guidelines/11538
Short response."you cant make a (new) omlette without breaking a few eggsāā¦I think it will be relatively short -term pain for long time gainā¦āthe writing is on the wall for the EUā and itās not just me saying itā¦
3 Likes
Yes, there is a connection in that they want something done to change the āstatus quoāā¦and for their concerns to be taken seriously and acted uponā¦I have American friends and they admit to the fact that the US system is not working well (not Obamaās fault) and that it is so hard to get anything doneā¦
2 Likes
Sorry James this will be my last post on this topic. In my opinion Hilaryās attempts to discredit lawyers are also way off the mark.
Thanks James,
Even in oneās ādarkest hourāā¦It is important to try to retain a sense of humour (other we might as well all be āfundamentalistsāā¦)ā¦This is a forum and surely everyoneās opinion is valid in that they have a right to post, even if one doesnāt share that point of view. It is irritating to be told that anyone who voted Brexit, did so out of sheer stupidity, ignorance or because of racist attitudesā¦not the case, I am glad to sayā¦
4 Likes
I could show you all several similar āCommentsā columns from national and local press where any number of illiterate trolls advocate extermination of the local Council, entire Parliament, or Police force or whoever. Nobody should take any of this seriously, much is written to irritate other posters (much like this SFN one at times!).
To suggest that anyone who comments on the news item featured here (which I have never encountered before, despite following UKIP- and Brexit-related news items with enthusiasm) represents UKIP itself or UKIP members in general is ludicrous and grossly irresponsible. It is no better than the spam email I received today headed: āI AM VERY ANGRY AND IT IS ALL YOUR FAULT!ā from some non-existent individual whose previous spam mails have all been deleted without being read.
Letās have a sense of proportion and not get over-excited by such trivial nonsense as comments on a random thread. Discuss the latest turn up for the Brexit book if you want to - those in favour of Remaining in the EU will insult those who wish to Leave, and Levers will defend their views without convincing Remainers. Iām very bored with such discussions and they get us nowhere.
2 Likes
Hilary, I am an American. It is the obstructionist Republicans in our country, many with views like your own, who have ensured ānothing gets doneā. They have blocked Obama and Democrats at every turn, in part, they say, because theyāre āangryā. Letās face it, weāre all angry about a lot of things in our societies. Itās how we choose to harness that anger that allows us, or not, to maintain our humanity. Blaming one group of people for the ills of society has been tried, and has never worked. The golden rule and its very basic tenet has fallen by the wayside, forgotten entirely by screeching Brexiters and lunatic Trump fans whose only concern is themselves, under the guise of ātaking backā or āmaking great againā. I donāt buy it, and, thankfully, there are millions in our two countries who donāt buy it, either.
7 Likes
I see that Farage is now calling upon 100,000 Brexiteers to lobby the Supreme Court on the day of the proposed appeal. That surely is pure intimidation of the judiciary. He should be given a strict talking to, and, if necessary, jailed for contempt of court. He appears to be having some sort of brain seisure.
7 Likes
Well said Katherine - excellent post!!
1 Like
So thatās six million with half a brain, and 17 million with none at all.
3 Likes
Well Katherine, I really donāt know how I would vote if I was an Americanā¦I was pro Clinton a few months back, but after watching the ādebatesā, (if you can call them that) and following the coverage and discussions on TV, now I am not so sureā¦I am for Obama care and couldnāt believe that when it was being opposed (some people might remember that I posted the link to Paul Hippās satirical songā¦āWeāre 37ā https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yVgOl3cETb4 )ā¦
I have already objected to the assertion that all Brexiteers are racistsā¦it is simply is not the case ! The whole question was about much more than the desire to control immigration, but āRemainersā use it as a not so effective āsmearāā¦(everyone has ārumbledā that by now)ā¦calling someone a āracistā is a tactic that is almost guaranteed to wreck someones careerā¦and must be rebutted on this forumā¦Where we are all entitled to express our opinions, especially if delivered in a (comparatively sane),calm and measured way, without āscreechingāā¦
Diana is right, we arenāt going to convince each other to change sidesā¦we need to accept that we have all researched, debated and formulated our own opinions and we should respect thatā¦
1 Like