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41

Damn, I missed the bonfire,once again. Moving beehives really sucks.

I can see that this thread is pretty much a smouldering wreck by now, but Carol, you adressed me, and it's only polite for me to reply.

you say dont agree with your comment Zoe on showing compassion to some causes and wishing to do damage to some others.....whilst I will pull out all the stops for those suffering/impoverished/used and abused...I dont actually feel kindly towards those that cause misery for others....the users and abusers.....those that physically and mentally harm...those that are sick and perverted and those that make money off the backs of others misfortune....those...I could probably happily not only wish harm to...but actually do the harm to them myself....I think that just shows I am a rounded individual......!"

I can see what you're saying, and I have, on occasion flown off the handle, and attacked people who were harming animals, and I once walloped a complete stranger for the fashion in which she was in turn, walloping her cowering, sobbing daughter.

I just mean, imagine this, you're out on a boat in the pacific ocean, working with an ocean conservation group, and on board there are many vegans (vegans love that shit). you eat meat, and so, most people on the boat will not speak to you, others will voice opinions to you, and those around you, and certain people will leave nails in your bed, put salt in your tea, and actually suggest you have your diving equipment sabotaged, because you're a murderer. where is the compassion these people are banging on about.

I WOULD intervene, and possibly hit, cut, shoot, or bop in the head -ANYONE I saw needlessly harming an animal, or weaker person, on impulse. I would even suggest that a child's rapist be handed over to the parents, or older brothers of the child, but I'm not going to trawl websites or facebook pages about hunting deer, or fishing, or people who eat shark fin soup, and spam their walls with "you should be hung/strung/die by a thousand cuts.

I'm also not ever going to say I'm absolutely seeping compassion. Nobody is. It has to stop somewhere.Even saints had their breaking points

42

Another well argued point Catharine ! Almost as articulate, detailed and well reasoned as "yawns".


Child.

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@ Richard - I don't have a "mummy"or a "daddy" - I have parents who work in the legal profession.

You are v rude and yes, should stay out of said debates.

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Anyone in a position to help Kids Company - here's the link:

http://www.kidsco.org.uk/

45

*yawns*

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Catharine,

God ! This is why I try to stay out of these debates !

First you blandly tell me that I am wrong. You then say you can’t remember who first said that they had told me I was wrong. I cite some good, well-researched, articles pointing out that numerous studies across the globe supported exactly what I had said. You dismiss these out of hand on the basis that ‘studies’ are always rubbish and anyone can find a study to support their opinion.

It is pretty common in any academic field to cite a study in support of a proposition. Of course studies or statistics can be wrong or falsely premised, but what other evidence in support of an argument do you expect ?

You then move on to telling me to get my facts straight and (rather condescendingly that I ought to realise this because I am a lawyer). This obviously pre-supposes that you are right and I am wrong.

In support of your argument that you are right and I ‘haven’t got my facts straight’ your argument is that ‘my mummy is a magistrate’. You don’t even cite your mother’s opinion or her experience on the subject, merely that because your mummy is a magistrate and your daddy a solicitor you must be right and I must be wrong.

So far you have not put forward one fact, study argument or statistic in support of your position that you are right and I am wrong. Just type in “domestic violence victim recant” into Google and you will find dozens of articles all premised on the idea that victims of domestic violence frequently decide to change their story after an initial allegation. The point isn’t whether this is good or bad, right or wrong or what the reasons for it are. The point is simply whether it is a common phenomenon that victims frequently recant. You, apparently, are right and have your facts straight. I am wrong, apparently.

You then go on to note that I wouldn’t get a job as an editor because I spelled your name incorrectly. I wasn’t applying for a job as an editor ! As you note yourself, this isn’t the first time that someone has made this mistake. Isn’t picking up on such an error a signal that you have run out of constructive argument, if there was any to start with ?

It is because this is what passes for the standard of debate that I try not to be drawn into these discussions. I give up…. I’ve got work to do….

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I am actually bowing out Cate. Your discipline certainly is methodologically sounder than my own, but then the social sciences wobble from beginning to end with all the contention. Look, I do not think my friend's view was a all subjective, not her style at all, so no. I used the Sun because it was, for simplicity's sakes here, dumbed down language compared to other more 'serious' media that waffled a bit. I am probably as 'snobbish' as you about the Sun, indeed normally will not go near anything News International do because of what they stand for as a matter of principle. I said that I was using it, not giving a rehashed version of X. Also, I asked the question seeking a response and I have answered the question on such children several times over. The other part of the question I cannot objectively answer because I am probably too prejudiced. I thoroughly enjoy rough and tumble, but on questions such as rude they are personal and I found what was being responded back to some people was rude - my feeling, not yours - so I spoke (wrote) my truth. I am not taking anything personally at all and even said that a couple of times.

I said 'off topic' to try to get back on track, why not? I do occasionally, so do other people, so not uniquely a me thing. But on point scoring, and I have never said that in any post before, we were, and Richard Miles and I (if you read carefully) are admitting it because we both know we got to that point. If you wish to start accusing, then substantiate your words correctly. This post has done its 'job', it has come to a point where it is in a domain I do not know about enough to say anything that means very much at all and so I'll leave you all to it and hope you will indeed enjoy it.

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Brian, I apologise if you feel this is still off topic, my post was made in response to Richard's sweeping generalisations and vilification of victims of domestic abuse, who are apparently one of the reasons there are children living in poverty in the UK.

Richard, thank you for your apology, I appreciate it. Without wishing to inflame the situation (as one who has, in the past found it much easier to say nothing, than continue an argument...) This is practice, after many years of saying nothing.

With regard to your comment: " Nonetheless we all have friends who forgive their cheating or abusive partner time after time and eventually we tire of sympathising with them and say 'well what did you expect this time'....." A word from the wise - these friends need your continued support, so that one day they feel able to do the right thing for themselves.

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Photographer's gel!

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wow...day on the beach at St Cyp and look what I missed! going to make one comment....as too knackered to enter into the fray for half the night. I nursed for a long time....part of my nursing was in Brighton and part in London at UCH. I worked in A and E in both.....and have to say, my experience was that battered women could have been on a bungy elastic. Its sadly a rare event that a woman who is hit or battered by her OH experiences this once. We had repeaters all the time. Ditto in the hostel. Several creeps usually men in their 40s or 50s who would take as their 'missus' a young woman. If I called the police once I called them a million times because one of these women got cr*p beaten out of them....by the time the police came, she would be crying and he would be cuddling her and apologising...and the police would have a wasted journey. This was just first hand experiences....I also had a smashing dad...but he was on occasions very handy with my mum....on too many occassions he would knock her around whilst I hid under the table...can even remember biting his leg as a 6 year old trying to get him to stop....he did eventually...when he was too old and couldnt walk anymore and she was looking after him....and not adverse to threatening him with a big wooden spoon! one thing I made sure I taught my kids...you never hit...if you do that...you deserve whatever is thrown at you...and never accept being hit...only a coward does that. Now Im off to bed...night night.

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Okay Brian - will come round and beat you up later! xx

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Catharine 'But I work in research' is a small point scoring toe in the bigger pool - which you, Richard, Hilary or I might also do unbeknown to her. I think this is all too far off topic for me, with domestic abuse in this context I am out of my depth entirely anyway and shall bow out here and now.

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I'm still missing who told you that you were wrong? Sorry if I have missed that - been a long day!

And I am sorry but I am going to have to say this.... anyone who is a lawyer knows how vitally important it is to deal in facts. And that includes spelling names right. I am CathArine. I've had this before from people who have applied for editing jobs and the answer is always a resounding no. Get your facts right and (hopefully) the rest will follow!

And please don't take that personally but is is a prime example of how important it is to stick to the facts. And not Wiki - 'I just wrote this' - pedia!

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Hilary,


Apologies. I probably took your comment and Catherine's together, although one does smell a whiff of reproach in your comments upon my observations.....

Of course nobody is suggesting that domestic violence is a good thing or that women (for it is usually they) should just keep quiet about it. Nonetheless it is frustrating that so often victims time and time, against all experience, forgive their abuser and invite them back into their lives only to see a repetition of the same thing. Of course life is complicated and relationships even more so. Nonetheless we all have friends who forgive their cheating or abusive partner time after time and eventually we tire of sympathising with them and say 'well what did you expect this time'.....

Catherine / Brian: of course studies can be wrong and jurists can always argue the toss over any particular point of law. However I think that the articles I have pointed do show that across the world it is the common experience of those who deal with the victims of domestic violence that the victim very frequently decides that (after having made a complaint) they change their mind......this was merely the point I initially made but appeared to be told that I was wrong about.....

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Eeerm Brian? I don't think Cate was point scoring? Plus, she might have had a shitty commute under someone's sweaty armpit...... ( see the FCGFSA group for details!)

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Superb Catharine, there is no right, I'll always agree with that no matter how hard I stand my ground.

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What kind of research Cate? So do I and have since becoming a post grad in 1970, by training social anthropology but later on more broadly across the social sciences and human rights (mainly children's rights). Google my publications if you have any doubts, those from at least the last decade to 15 years are easily found. Woolly it was never, but a little softened down because it is a public discussion that is not amongst fellow professionals. As Catharine said recently in another post, as in conversation things do drift off topic, now stop joining in the point scoring Cate, enough of us have indulged ourselves too much already.

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Yes Cate - I agree - nothing wrong with wandering off topic - one of the better things about SFN - I think!

@ Richard - we all know that "studies" can find whatever they want to. My mother was a magistrate for over 20 years and my father is still a solicitor. Hope that clarifies things for you. And you cannot possibly be "right" - no one ever is - and that is the wonderful thing about mankind. We all have a lot to learn!

59

Look here both. I have worked with lawyers for so long that I know full well everything in law is contestable so that there is no single orthodoxy, truth or anything else so that this piece cited is the position of one particular lawyer or group of lawyers but never of a significant part of the whole legal profession. There are simply too many positions on points of law. As a lawyer friend of mine, Richard Fentiman, once explained to several of us, even if a law is written in the simplest, plainest language and is short, concise and exactly to the point, there will still be a small army of lawyers wanting to contest it using hundreds of different and often conflicting arguments. If that is the case then no point can ever be proven by legal process but abjudicated by one or a panel of judges or a jury under the guidance of a judge.

All of which veers some thousands of degrees off topic. It was never about domestic abuse, or even necessarily child abuse although neglect may well be the case. Lawyers and police had nothing to do with it either. Time to pack it in I think.

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Richard: "I think that my observations appear to be pretty much in line with the experience of lawyers and prosecutors across the world. Sorry to utter un-pallatable truths..... do I need to do any more research ?"

These are not unpalatable truths Richard. As you state, your observations appear to be in line with the experience of lawyers and prosecutors across the world.

If you would like to take the time to read my short post below, you will, perhaps, find that I was suggesting research about victims of domestic abuse, not statistics or articles about lawyers and police officers' frustration, but the people who really need help.

I could point you to a number of sites which would give you more information, but for personal reasons, I choose not to.