Thanks Catharine, I will be seeing him again because he is committed to problem solving the tank exchange (beyond the company). I will pass on the well done. We know their road won't be easy because the challenges will not disappear overnight, but they will stick to it. I've learned a lot from our exchange and from the posts, as well.
I am in my late 50s...and my folks were working class...my dad a lorry driver and my mother didnt work. My dad had a lot of faults...but having had a pretty awful childhood himself...his mum died when he was 8 shortly after his little 4 year old brother...both had TB....he was kept by his dad...he was the middle child of 3 boys...with an older daughter from the mothers first marriage. First my grandpa gave the daughter to her blood grandparents...he didnt want her. Then, as a working man he told the boys he would keep them but they had to bring money into the house to provide for themselves. So my dad at 8 was delivering bags of coal after school...working 30 hours a week after school and at weekends...to make ends meet. Thus...he turned into the best dad in the world...he used to deliver his goods (he worked for Schweppes) to an orphanage just outside of London. He came across a little boy of around 8...whose mum had died...and whose dad didnt want him..so it struck a chord with my dad. The little boy was mixed race. Anyway we started having him over at weekends...high days and holidays...and eventually after a year my dad put in for adoption...his father objected...and started seeing the boy again...but within a short period of time, the boy had developed mental health problems...became violent...biting, kicking, and used to become impossible to handle. Our home visits stopped...the little boy had a medical assessment and was deemed unsuitable for adoption or fostering...and we were prevented from visiting further... Such a sad story....we heard later that his father stopped contacting and our little boy ended up in an asylum...probably never came out...that was common in the 1950s...
wow...lovely story...and what a wondefully tenacious couple...many would have thrown in the towel....lovely. And from several TV programmes in the UK..I am aware...that kids who are taken away from their parents...no matter how bad...really need the continuity of siblings..and not to also lose them...so really fantastic for this man and his wife...they have done the best thing for these children...a wondeful selfless act....we could do with a lot more people like this in the world.
That is some powerful story Susan. Much food for thought. I have never done it, because my life has never been fixed enough, but at one time my then wife and I went to see the authorities about fostering. Because she was over and I was coming up to 40 and had never fostered at our ages, they turned us down flat. No regrets, but I never got to see first hand. I have known fosterers and two of our friends here are doing it and have for years. It is, as Catharine says, one of the hardest and I would assume best things people can do.
If I could have, I would have adopted a number of children in Peru. I would have had to stay there though and life was cut by that cloth at that time. I have regrets even now although we have two children we made.
Thanks for posting that Susan. I think it has brought the discussion back on track - i.e. - this is about children. And should you ever see the propane guy again, please tell him a big well done from me.
My parents fostered too and it is one of the hardest and best things you can ever do.
Richard asked, What I really would like to know is , is anybody, apart from us three nutters reading this thread, or are we just being left to hack each other to death... I am following as I can from across the ocean. The title of the thread doesn't apply to me of course. I don't have much to say other than same difference in America, same debates and discussions. This has made me yearn for a study group that has a purpose. For now, I just want to share a story that came as a gift. This is not a morality tale. It is just a story that moved me, particularly because I raised three sons. Additionally, as it happens I am working on an assignment that involves fetal alcohol syndrome. Many of the things discussed play into this subject. Anyway, here is the story:
Where are the children in all this? So much happens with mothers and
children below the radar. Several days ago, a man who works for the
propane company that services me shared a story. In fact, we talked
for about two hours. ( I wanted the company to take away my huge ugly
propane tank that blocks my view of the meadow and put a small one
close to the house. It turned out to be rather complicated because of
the way it was installed in the first place so that didn't happen. We
are now in negotiation as to who should pay given the poor
installation in the first place). Anyway, he and his wife have taken
in foster children over the years. They were asked to take four
brothers. The youngest was 22 months and the oldest was six-years-old.
Their mother was 24. She is a drug addict. The children were taken out
of the home when they were found wandering by a river bank alone.
After nine months of fostering the brothers, the couple decided to
initiate adoption proceedings. The propane employee was 58. His family
and friends asked him why he would consider such an adoption at his
age, particularly when it was clear that the brothers had a lot of
problems. He said his answer was that the boys should never be
separated from each other.
He and his wife sold their house and built a larger one to accommodate
their expanded family. Then the county removed the children from their
home saying that they were relocating the brothers to another county.
The propane employee said he believed this decision was based on
economic motives.
Each brother went to a different home. Though the couple fought the
removal of the children, it seemed clear that they were not going to
get the children back so they sold their house and moved into a
smaller one.
As it turned out, none of the new foster homes wanted to keep the
particular child given into their care because they were too difficult to handle
and obviously had developmental disabilities. The county asked the
couple to take the four brothers back. They did and initiated adoption
proceedings yet again. They sold their smaller house and bought a
larger one again. The children steadily improved at home and in school
under their care.
The adoption went through a week before I met him. He was a very happy
man. The couple now had the choice as to whether the mother would have
access to her children. They decided that the brothers should know
their mother and encouraged her to visit them. She never responded. We
agreed in our conversation that there was an equal chance that someday
she might. Meantime, the brothers are doing well and they are
together. I thanked him for sharing his story. It was a gift.
So, what values should we hold? Few people would want four problem
brothers, but how could separating them, as they were already
separated from their mother whatever her problems and whatever the
need to do so, be a consideration.
@Zoe...just came across your comments re: you working in a bakery...how sad that the owner wouldnt give to those who could do with it. Its the same in the UK....the supermarkets now lock their bins..with food thrown out only because of the sell by date...its perfectly edible...but they wont allow dumpster divers to access the food...they would rather it was thrown away...now how does that equate with a first world European country? and I bet the supermarkets give to 3rd world charities...
OK, last offering. I am not sweet on social workers either. I have seen them take children back to abusive, nasty homes because that would be better for them than scratching together survival on the street. I did some work in Amsterdam and told a panel of social workers that the kids should have a say in their future, even choice and if that included them taking their chances in the world alone then let it be but deciding for them and getting it wrong, what does that achieve? I got a real 'jobsworth' answer, as you can imagine, so gave up in the end. Then when I did get a look in institutions where kids went when home didn't work, they were no better than prisons where children who had been thrown out of home, ones who were deemed at risk by being left at home and some tough little thugs wer thrust together. There was physical punishment that is actually abuse, no compassion but only discipline and people wonder why the kids fell under the influence of the tough little, impervious thugs. The social workers and their good works were denying kids who might have been helped anything useful and only encouraging them to go off the tracks. I am sure there are many good social workers, but far too many terrible ones though.
the smart ones watching tennis...andy murray about to lose the final .....possibly! I too am going to retire and do something useful...OH just happened to mention I have been glued to the spot all day!!!! enjoy the rest of the weekend....
I think we've hacked them all off, perhaps time to call it a day.
agree with you Richard regarding social workers...I did a few years stint with social services..organising home helps..and shared an office with the kids social workers...often found one kicking a wall or screaming...as a baby she had removed because of cigarette burns etc was awarded back to the parents by a well meaning judge. Usually with the result the kid was later killed, further abused and taken into care numerous times...or turned out a 'badun' as society had left them to be tortured by their parents. I have much time for good social workers...we hear abou bad ones...but there are many, many good ones that work within a ridiculously diffult system.....and they are always slated...they are poorly paid and not supported..so they to my mind are the unsung hero's. Society is going to have to change big time for such schools to be brought into existence...and those homes...that did exist...so many kids were abused...its a problem with schools and homes for kids....too many kids...too many opportunities for weirdo's to have their way with kids...so personally not wild about the idea...too much policing required..and too little would be on offer. I have seen though much more rigorous action with removal of kids from iffy homelife...one of our hostel girls of 18....gave birth to 2nd child...which after 4 weeks trial was removed as had the first one...and adopted out....she could dress them...(like dollys) but she couldnt cuddle...love...and remember to feed her babies... seeing her own mother visit the hostel..I understood why...
Ok...Richard...Kids are not just for Xmas...you produce them...you bring them up...you take the good and the bad...its not like marriage where you divorce them...you are responsible to a greater or lesser extent for the fruit of your loins...and I do absolutely believe that. Not all mummies and daddies are kind and loving parents...some are addicted to various potions..some are bullies and knock their kids and partners around...some abuse and invite friends to also abuse their kids....so its not always the kids. Some kids run wild....why? sometimes because they are bad, mad or have got in with a rubbish crowd...does that mean mum and dad should kick them out...I dont think so....I dont think parenting is that simple...do as I tell you or as you put it f*ck off! there are a miriad of reasons why kids are not home...but lets remember...a kid is a young person...without the experience, knowledge and common sense you would expect from someone longer in the tooth....I would rather err on the side of compassion...than leave a needy youngster out there and hungry...and some of them are terrified they will be taken back to the parents that have used and abused them...every story Richard...every story....
Richard, you are still ducking the question. What about GENUINE five year olds in food lines hungry?
Mine is professional involvement too. I was one of the founders of the now defunct and generally forgotten Streetwise International charity. We cooperated with Childhope International and other charities still working now. All of us were part of starting the UK Consortium for Street Children. I wrote a thesis that was mainly on that topic and included European data. My work has been in the field of children's rights since the late 70s alongside research in mainly developing countries but also some in Europe that has always dealt with issues like child labour, trafficking and other equally nice topics. Cate, it is not so much emotional as experience based which does not prevent me having feelings. Hence, like Carol, it is a matter of commitment and belief in what one is doing. Where there is alcohol and drugs involved it is rarely young children and apart from in the northern hemisphere I have seldom experienced children/youth under about 14 drinking or using dope, so it tends to be a bit more marginal for me than in Carol's case. I also feel that direct giving helps more than high cost charity operations that give only a small part of funds to actual work, but then I think that they too have their place in the world so work for them as a consultant as and when. I am not claiming to be all-knowing but I believe that children are fundamentally good and life makes them what the end product is and wherever possible I would like to see that they have a fair chance of a decent life that gives them the chance to be decent people. If I have wasted over 40 years then that is my fault, but I do not for one moment believe I have.
oh Brian; Carol and Richard I am somewhere stuck in the middle of the tangled
wool.
What a huge step it was to up root from what I knew so well and leave the friend's which
had taken a lifetime to find.
There is no going back.
Not there to a place were the air itself is filled with confussion.
It is probably too late for Robin and maid Marian.
Too involved and invasive to work out who desperatly needs help
and who needs a kick up the bakside and into the nearest Tesco to
fill shelves....weather permiting.
Too late to weed out the bad apples who contaminate leadership
and financial structure.
Too many bad apples do not create a good example for the weak
ones who are hungry for easy money.
No one is right and no one is wrong...
not entirely agreeing with your assessment Cate....I dont give by and large because of an emotional response; I have worked for several charities...both international and local....some with multi millions...some bringing in a few hundred thousand a year.....but seeing that with many charities...90% of the collected monies go towards staff costs/cars for staff/offices etc....I feel giving directly is a way to ensure 100% of what I give goes where it should. I know that some charities are better at reducing overhead costs...but I dont always agree with the 'rules' in place with some hostels...and that includes the Salvation Army who will throw out residents if they are caught drinking alcohol....those on the streets often if not always have an alcohol problem...so not really helpful...
Richard, the whole argument for you is that only those who agree with you or you are right and everybody else is wrong. We differ, using expressions like 'saints' is facetious, thus rude and the way you have responded to Carol is undoubtedly cycnical. For all of that, what you have not actually said in any detail in this thread is how you feel about young children who are genuinely hungry, impoverished and are joining food handout queues. A word here and there, but mainly a putting down of people for being in that situation and no acceptance that some people are willing to do although you at one stage insinuated that most people are all mouth and trousers in that respect. It is uncompromising and without any genuine compassion and that is what I think some of us find sad, plus the fact that you ladle out putdowns generously. Let others do what they do and leave it at that and comments in an insincere manner about anybody being 'saints' is out of order.
My other point originally was that people have a blinkered view of the world when wanting back to the UK because it is somehow better than here, which it evidently is not. You and I both prefer to stay here, let them go but they do not need to imply we are wrong to stay as some have occasionally done. It is our choice and are you wrong to stay in the light of what they are telling us? So it is also for those of us who have the weakness, if it is that, of caring for others for whatever reason which is also a personal thing.
I dont agree with your comment Zoe on showing compassion to some causes and wishing to do damage to some others.....whilst I will pull out all the stops for those suffering/impoverished/used and abused...I dont actually feel kindly towards those that cause misery for others....the users and abusers.....those that physically and mentally harm...those that are sick and perverted and those that make money off the backs of others misfortune....those...I could probably happily not only wish harm to...but actually do the harm to them myself....I think that just shows I am a rounded individual......!
Richard, you are so cynical. Neither Carol nor I are saints, so please do not start by being sarcastic. We do what the hell we want and not what you say we should. If we, and several others on here, feela nd show compassion it is our business and we do not need to be judged by you. If you can stomach people genuinely starving and especially so if they are very young, apart from which they are genuinely not your skivers, benefits scroungers or whatever, then live with it. Carol does not, Sheila does not, Zoe does not, I do not and you do. Fair's fair, you are entitled to an opinion but when it is based on misinformed and probably biassed information then save it for somewhere rather than creating a hornet's nest here. Stop name calling please, that should have finished in the school playground.
Excuse me, then you know better than people ruling a number of countries including Cameron, plus Mervyn King as the head of the Bank of England who have publically stated that the wealth divide is increasing. Could I please tap into your source of knowledge please, Google searces haven't revealed it thus far.
Carol, for all the online hard debates we have, here I have to hand it to you, you are portraying a reality that so many people cannot and will not accept which is absolutely part of my orginal point although not written out the way you are expressing it. The doubters will continue to deny, but I will take people into my home as I please and no doubt you will do whatever you can in your chosen way. Benefits have so many hurdles to jump or barriers like age that young people are consigned to the scrap heap before they get a foot on the ladder but somebody will always come back to the old argument that if they can't get benefits then they should have a job. Where and how does not enter those people's minds.
Mcdonalds meals...a fiver each...when were you last in the UK? and I was working...in a homeless hostel...so guess I am allowed to spend my money where I want....and Richard...glad not everyone quite so hard nosed as you....would be a very different...more unkind world...