I think the bottom line is employability. If you put a candidate from a UK university against one from a French one, I believe that the UK one will be more employable.
I did not say that it is not more expensive in UK but you get what you pay for. Most of the good French facs are only equivalent to lower end UK ones. So are you saying you prefer to be in France because you get more state benefits?
That is just how I read it
Well I seem to have struck a nerve here Nick. I think you have twisted the fact to suit your argument. You cannot entitle your thread 'why it is better in France' and then not accept any argument that shows you may not be right. I think your facts are rubbish and show a very little understanding of France.France has been bankrupt for decades. You want to show why you think France is better, I want to show why I don't agree and think the UK is better, I am happy for a German to come and say why they think Germany is better. That's not the point. I don't see how pointing out that the UK has lower unemployment is irrelevant. As a young person living in London I don't agree with you about the outlook for young people. Yes it is not great but it is still better than the outlook in France. How many English young people born or brought up in France are now flocking back to the UK for university and work? How many find jobs in France? Where are your children if they are of working age? France's leverage is higher than the UK another reason why France may not be the safe haven you think so why is it irrelevant? Whatever you want to believe, the service industry in France represents higher % of GDP than UK and manufacturing a lower percentage so the two main bases for some of what your say are incorrect. I had to look up cloud cuckoo land but I'm afraid it is uyou who are living in it. You seem to have no understanding of how the new system works. It is not me who claims that the grand ecoles are equal to UK universities, it is all the global league tables. How many French universities appear in any of them? They are rubbish which is why so many people go to university abroad. I went to both so can make a direct comparison from personal experience too. I think your reply is very rude and I'm afraid that you do not seem to understand the situation in France at all. Do you read French newspapers I wonder . And to repeat back to you There seems to be a certain level of hostility/dislike of UK? Am I wrong. I am happy with my decision to live in UK for the moment and think it is better to be here for me. If you don't think so then that is fine but you treat me like a stupid person when I was born and brought up in France and probably know it a little bit better than you is not very polite
I have just put up a discussion following on from this using some of your words that I find important. I agree 100% with what you are saying. My father, who I profoundly disliked, thought the developing countries I work in were not worth the effort. On the other hand, having been one of the Royal Engineers who landed first to build Mulberry Harbour, under fire but unable to shoot back, then later helping build POW camps for Germans, later Japanese in Singapore, he got to meet and know those people and changed. After years of clearing unexploded explosives in Germany, mainly with German fires service volunteers he was so convinced that war was pointless and that world peace was the answer because of what he had learned from German friends and the few Japanese he had met. Those who fought the wars on the frontline and bore the brunt of the aftermath were working class people like him. He question why? In that I admired one thing about the man. He also believed Europe with its belligerent history should lead the way.
Yep, we're in for some tough times ahead but I believe that the old continent, which is old in more ways than one, has more chance of confronting those changes and remaining a world player if Europe sticks together, if we don't then we'll be overtaken by the emerging countries and left in their dust. A united Europe is the best way forward but I'm not sure if everyone is ready to accept that unforetunately and I doubt that it will ever be properly explained either. Makes me think of my late grandmother who was a conservative party activist until her last days but so so so out of touch with reality that it was frightening, she would talk about the UK and Europe as if england still had an empire. try and discuss India, China or Brazil with her and it was as if you were talking about fairies!
I fear that the masses will continue gleaning their ideas from the press and other media sources without being able to see the wheeling and dealing that's going on behind the scenes. From what I read on this site the classic at the moment (and I don't read the UK press so i could be wrong) seems to be the uk press knocking France and Europe simply to keep all eyes off what's really going on in the uk!
Yes the two threads are very similar and neither has a clear cut answer, except that I believe like Nick and you that I/we are better off here in France than in the UK, not the case for everyone, and James if you'r reading this then perhaps i'm talking about you, who have high income lives in the UK and will find it very difficult to find the same in France, it's not a one size fits all country, but there again neither is the UK!
Ciao!
In case you, or anybody else, is confused about the Nick and Glen hybrid answer, I have also answered to James on Glen's one. I find the two posts far more interrelated than people might think. They are both about relative prosperity, one in capitalist society living on borrowing and the other welfare. Both go into the realms of the morality issue and Glen's one has rightly gone toward the opposite extreme of the bankers, bonus takers, etc. This is sooooo close when one really thinks about the two questions, so I dared... I also agree on your other point saying 'how bloody marvelous' Europe is and I agree with the reasons entirely. This is also a very tired continent that has been at the centre of world affairs for millenia and over the last century has competed with the other side of the Atlantic for that primacy. That place has taken its approaches from Europe anyway, continuing on from where its founding fathers and those who went since took with them and have made it into something else. Better? Let history judge. Is France so hunkydory? Well, no. As long as we can all accept that balances change in this world and do not wait until our 'Rome' is burning then it will all square out. For now a united Europe is the best chance we have and the sooner that is properly explained so that people can understand and accept it then the better.
So have a good day, bongiorno professore!
I appreciate your pro european post Nick, so many people have lost sight of how bloody marvelous Europe simply for the fact that it is saving us millions and millions as we've stopped fighting each other. It isn't perfect but it's enabling us to live (and work for some) here in France which most of us seem to love. Too many people get bogged down with what are often simple cultural differences and rather than accept and learn from them, they dig their heels in because it isn't like in blighty and complain, ultimately ruining their lives (and those of others when they go on and on) here in France losing sight of the real global picture. Vive la France, vive l'Europe et vivent les différences !
Buongiorno capitano !
This debate is interesting. When Nick dropped it on us I was very, very sceptical about 'another' track to the Europe issue. This has taken on a life of it own. I have argued somewhat with James and Jan. In neither case do I bear you any ill will. I think, and other people are saying it in their way, that James has prejudices. Well, we all do. Those of us who are pro-EU do to begin with, etc. The world I, with my 63 and a bit years and a very long memory, remember is gone. Long gone, consigned to history and not to be repeated. The old values, and I share many of them with people too, have been superceded by others. We may not like them but they are what are there, we must get on with life notwithstanding. So James, perhaps you have lived in the middle of a concentration of skivers, dole specialists and phoney job seekers, but as a proportion of the UK population they are few. Also, looking at government statistics last night on the ONS site the numbers of people receiving top level assistance are relatively small. There are many, many more receiving well under £100 per week with Job Seeker's Allowance and a few bob on top, indeed there have been recent reports of people on JSA paying for energy, etc and being left with less than £20 a week to feed and clothe themselves and do whatever else they need to do such as pay fares to get to job interviews. Should the government not look to them first? In all fairness I think most of us would say 'Yes'. Fair enough, most would say conditional on them being the real McCoy and I feel we would all accept that.
Jan, conspiracy theories abound. There are many. Your Kennedy example is simply one of several hundred and I do not exagerate. Nothing delights me more than being distracted from my writing to web search such things in the hope that seeing those things invigorates me a bit. All conspiracy theories are of that nature. Once given substance they are dealt with, killed off by the unseen powers that be who we know actually are there but try not to mention. Like everybody else believe what you will.
Last night we saw the track open into the other end of the scale. I for one think examples like Stephen Hester being given £1.6 m for be CEO of a not entirely stable government owned RBS when there are over one million young people unemployed is obscene. Especially when profits have gone down quite drastically over the last year. No doubt City people will be walking away unnoticed with equally huge and bigger bonuses. Some of their companies will be laying people off. These people are rich beyond our wildest dreams but the people they lay off may never have another day in their lives without fear of debts they were encouraged to accumulate can no longer be paid off. It is two ends of one spectrum and belongs firmly in here. No, we should not compare with France. If we want to do that then somebody who is well enough informed should start a new thread to that effect, toute suite. As Nick says, there are always two sides to a debate but many issues debated themselves have many dimensions. Those are not best served by our personal like and dislikes or the sometimes intriguing conspiracy theories. OK everybody, I am a very early bird and I guess osme of you are now rising so GOOD MORNING!!
Jan, for goodness sake , have you actually read my post? It is an attempt to show that although Europe has it's problems, so does the UK. I have just read so many anti European posts, that it was a simple attempt to redress that, nothing more.
We are both adults, and you need to develop a thicker skin if you are going to start on with conspiracy theories. When things get tough in our lives,it is only human nature to attempt to find a scapegoat to exonerate the fact that we are all fallible, imperfect bipedal ape descendants.That has far more relevance on this topic, than anything else.
I think everyone here knows that governments get up to things we rather they didn't - weapons of mass deception for one - but trying to superimpose an illuminarty organisation that wants to cripple Europe financially for ever, really is beyond belief. You are speaking to someone who is open minded enough to consider the possibility of life on other planets in our galaxy, but not that.
I think the truth about people in senior government and private company positions, is their not as smart as they would like us all to believe. There are just so many examples of their incompetence. Our own MP's couldn't even manage to steal off the tax payer successfully, when they had total control over the system.
Now , back to the thread and the points that have been raised ;-)
Yeah, huh, huh, funny, Nick. I replaced mine with a helmet, huh, huh.
Nope, won't be starting any threads on this anymore. Tried to warn people in 2006 for the coming financial troubles in 2008, and especially some high level economists on that particular forum had reactions like yours, making fun of it. Some of them saw their jobs or even businesses go down the drain after the shit hit the fan. Serves them well!
But hey, no problem, I'll stop interfering with this discussion about the marvelous benefits of France and will go mind my own business.
You're welcome, it's my pleasure
Exacto...
The UK's situation is just as bad as the rest of Europe or the USA. Its citizens will be paying the bill, whether through taxes, inflation, liquidation, loss of value or just plain government robbery. Only those who were wise enough to cover their noble behinds ahead of time will come out with some buying power. This is not "perhaps there are" stuff, believe me, but my guess is that you're old and wise enough to do some googling for yourself to become an informed person.
I've already mentioned the "Oh, Canada... etc." link, go from there and you'll understand.
Cheers!
Thanks, Nick!
If these conspiracy theories get any worse, I will have to did out my tin foil hat again ;-)
Jan , can you please start your own thread on on your particular conspiracy theories, as it has nothing what so ever to do with this thread, and to be honest adds zero to this debate.
Thanks
Join the long queue, there are so many why-JFK-was-assassinated conspiracy theories that one could get old trawling through them. International finance is a law unto itself, but I am quite sure Nick and most other people on here know that. Are you trying to tell us something? If so try something pertinent to the original question but not try to steer it off into the realms of perhaps-there-are-fairies versions of an irrelevant nature. When Nick posed the question I thought he was rephrasing much chewed over issues but this did take on a life of its own and some interesting and original thoughts have been expressed. Leaving the personal grievances and conspiracy theories aside, what do you actually think about the UK's situation?
Europe (as we know it) is NOT going to recover, ever, because the currency system itself robs its users from their wealth, all of it. If you'd like to understand how and why you may want to watch the documentary "Oh, Canada, Our Bought & Soldout Land". What happens in Canada is exactly what's happening in Europe, the USA and many, if not most other nations.
Those brave leaders who tried to install another currency system or kick out the bankers have all been 'removed', often after having been demonized. Think of Saddam Hussein, Khadafi, but even 'good guys' like JFK. His plans for the introduction of a silver backed US dollar are the main reason he got assassinated (On June 4, 1963, President John F. Kennedy signed Executive Order No. 11110 that returned to the U.S. government the power to issue currency, without going through the Federal Reserve).
The governors of the Bank of England are in the game with its off-shore owners, their future is secured as is their capital. 'What will come will wipe the smile off the faces of people like you and me ...
Plus the polio epidemics! I remember that too, waving to the steam trains going to places like Brighton out of East Croydon round about Purley! Nostalgia, when we were in the UK for short spells my father was stationed at Sanderstead in the remote countryside and when I would have been four, bit less than five, there were flags everywhere when we arrived. They were for the coronation and there was lots of extra food about that people normally could not get. Boy oh boy, did Cologne seem hard after that holiday!
Chuc Mung Nam Moi!