Are you calling me patronising Simon? Please don’t, you are not the only person railing against Brexit. I feel personally attacked and humiliated by the result of the referendum and, yes, I too am angry but trying to find a way to cope with the coming years and to turn the bitterness inside of me into something more constructive. How I don’t know, which is why I turn to forums such as these for some ideas. But I am far too raw to take slights.
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I don’t think we see things in the same way: you differentiate between people and places in a way that doesn’t mean anything to me. When people move around, they take themselves as they are: they don’t become someone else.
And your presumptions about the NHS don’t make sense to me either. The UK government pays the French government a sum each year to cover health charges when a UK migrant to France is retired there – it’s reciiprocal. But there is a difference between someone in the UK who can fund and use private health care and the hoi poloi who have to depend 100% on the NHS.
UK government decisions on the state pension obviously concern those who receive it no matter where they live.
As for shopping habits – do they define whether someone is eligible to vote now?
I don’t entirely disagree with you there, although I think that people do develop as a consequence of moving around. It would be rather sad if experiences weren’t assimilated at all. Since I’ve lived in France I don’t feel I have changed basically as a person, but certainly my eyes have been opened wider and some of my views have gradually changed. But personally, living in France as the person I am, I simply don’t feel entitled to make decisions that will impact on the lives of people who live in a country I haven’t lived in for 10 years and whose problems and challenges I am out of touch with.
I don’t understand this argument at all. I was using the NHS as an example to illustrate why I think major decisions that will affect the UK should be left up to those who live in the UK and depend on its services. I live in work in France, I have no vested interest in the NHS because however dysfunctional it gets, due to understaffing and pay caps or whatever, it is no skin off my nose. If after Brexit the NHS goes through a period where it is unfit for purpose, as long as the people who are impacted are the ones that voted for Brexit, that’s fine by me. But if I’d voted for Brexit I wouldn’t be able to square it with my conscience if I thought people in the UK - the hoi polloi as you call them - were getting substandard care because of my vote, while I was unaffected and still all right Jacqueline over here.
No of course not, but it seems to me that there is a risk of conflict of interest if you have your economic interests in one country and you vote in another. I’m all in favour of a strong € and a weak £, it gives me extra pouvoir d’achat when I go back to the UK. But for my friends in the UK, if prices of imported goods go up and their wages don’t, I wouldn’t want to feel I’d voted for them to tighten their belts.
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Well, even though I’m in France, I do have family and friends in the UK. It upsets me that the NHS that served me very well from birth to when I left and that I used to feel proud of, is being dismantled ready to be sold off. You feel you have “no vested interest” in it, I don’t feel that at all.
“as long as the people who are impacted are the ones that voted for Brexit, that’s fine by me”. Every member of the hoi poloi (that includes me, my family & friends – none of us is rich & privileged) will be affected, including those who voted Remain.
“But if I’d voted for Brexit I wouldn’t be able to square it with my conscience if I thought people in the UK - the hoi polloi as you call them - were getting substandard care because of my vote, while I was unaffected and still all right Jacqueline over here.” But if you’d been able to vote Remain you would feel you’d done your best. I suppose those who voted Leave are happy with the results, though I can’t for the life of me understand how.
Brexit affects us all – emotionally, financially, sense of security, politically … Anyway clearly you and I will not see eye to eye on this.
Yes, when I had hens their eggs’ yolks were an almost fluorescent deep orange/red because their diet consisted of grain plus all our vegetable scraps, lots of delicious dark green leafy stuff and peppers etc. And everything they could scratch up in the garden.
But the shell colour is down to breed.
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Actually, I wouldn’t. I’d feel I’d stuck my oar into something that I shouldn’t have. Nobody knows how Brexit will turn out but it seems highly likely that there will be a price to pay in the short term at least. The question is, will the UK ultimately feel that that price was worth paying? Maybe they will, maybe they won’t. Which brings us round the full circle - they are the ones who should be allowed to decide without me interfering one way or the other. How can I even try to balance potential hardships I’m not expecting to experience first hand against benefits I’m not expecting to experience first hand either?
But I’m not covered by the NHS. Of course I know people who are, but I don’t try to live other people’s lives or fight their battles for them any more than I expect anyone else to try to live my life or fight my battles. Maybe I will go back to the UK one day and if I do then I will start having a vested interest again, but I can’t spread my loyalties thin like that. Whenever I’ve left an institution, or a job, or an association, or a country, or whatever, it doesn’t mean that I lose interest or stop caring about the group I used to be part of, but it does means that I leave the politics and the decision-making to them. I still have opinions and feelings, but as an outsider not as an insider. If they want to adopt new policies and head in a direction that I don’t agree with, it might make me sad but I wouldn’t feel it’s my place to object. I shared their past, but their present and their future are separate from mine.
As you say, we’ll have to agree to differ, I learnt to let go because that works best for me, I can’t cope with trying to move on while still feeling responsible for what I’m leaving behind, but you seem to be able to hold on tight all round. I respect your views and I’m sure a lot of people share them, thank you for taking the time to explain.
I have already tried to explain why I voted for Brexit. I will attempt to do so yet again. I do not believe that we can have an homogenous society, I do not believe that one shoe fits all. I believe we all have different cultures and whilst those cultures can rub alongside each other I do not think that they can ever go into a mixing pot and mix. I believe that whilst the UK is verging on the err of democracy, the EU has no democracy.
The EU is an unelected 3 tier dictatorship on the soviet model, I cannot vote out people like Juncker or Truss and have to just be dragged along by the minions. Generally, the majority in Europe is ignored. I can at least vote for change in the UK.
The way that the EU squanders money is unbelievable, for example moving every week to Strasbourg at enormous expense, spending millions on Spanish, Polish and Portuguese roads whilst in the UK we are left with pot holes! The Common Agriculture Policy, where people are given millions for just having land has never been addressed and compensation doled out to French farmers borders on the ridiculous.
Countries such as Spain and Greece who have massive unemployment are tied to the euro, whereas if they had their own currency, they would be able to devalue, and hopefully encourage investment and jobs for particularly the younger generations. As it is they are really hog tied.
Many remainers have said that I was foolish to say that we would be dragged into the euro and lose the pound, but I think that is most certainly on the cards…back to the homogenous society…all be the same, so must have the same currency! Likewise Clegg and his ilk said that there would be no European army, yet this is now openly being discussed.
Our country trades with 7% of the world (the EU) and the EU does not allow us to trade independently with the other 93%. I used to wonder why ‘Fair Trade’ produce was so expensive…then I discovered it is because of the tariffs the EU insists upon…much better not to have tariffs and truly aid the poorer countries…just a small thing but indicative of the only interest the EU and their cohorts have is the EU!
To give away our Common Law safeguards and live under a Police State with Brussels deciding who can live in our country - To lose control over how many we have to support in perpetuity - is an abomination.
Furthermore, it is in my opinion, unsustainable to have a few richer countries supporting the poorer countries…the well will eventually dry up.
Overall the EU is full of corruption and we are unable, as taxpayers, to do anything about it. We have an unaccountable and unelected Commission directing us in everything we do and every part of our lives and whether we agree or not does not make a whit of difference.
This quite brief, but I assure you, I researched all over the net, various green papers and newspapers, before I made the decision to vote out. I think as a nation we will survive much better without the dogged EU. Finally if you actually read between the lines the only real winner in the EU Germany…the rest get the hand outs!!!.
Regards
Coralyn
BTW I am no longer commenting on Survive France re this subject as I find that generally, they are rude, bigoted and unwilling to listen or do their own research!
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From what I have seen I think it is often a matter of which climate zone one happens to be in. In Maryland and Virginia eggs are often offered for sale at ambient temperature, whereas in Louisiana they are in a chiller cabinet. Of course one has to pay extra for the mucky ones from the Farmer’s Market.
Surely Damian, where a person lives should have no effect on what they feel is best for the future of their country. The referendum was not supposed to be about what is best for the individual, but rather about what is best for the future of our country as a whole. For those who voted in consideration of the UKs future, rather than for the benefit of their own wallet, where they happened to be living at the time was simply irrelevant.
The biggest mistake was for the referendum vote to be allowed to take place.
If this Brexit really takes place it will be with all of us forever.
Voting for a new PM is as far as a "lay man " should venture with big decisions.
Most of the people I know who voted to leave had no idea what they were doing.
I find that now I have nothing in common with this people and try to hold on to
their friendship but I see that they have not thought about it all…they have just the views
of the media …nothing more.
I see the waves of hatred flood through UK.
I see the nhs and the police force being swept away with bad management.
The future of UK is not bright…and that is what matters most.
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'Where a person lives should have no effect on what they feel is best for the future of their country.'
An interesting sentence which I think sums up one of the big differences between different posters on this thread. Many people resident in France still think of the UK as home, their country. Others believe that their country is the country where they live, where they pay their taxes, live their everyday lives, where their friends are and where they get their healthcare. I’m far more interested in my country’s future within a strong EU than I am about those islands that I left over thirty years ago where a technical majority who believe in the power of St George and tradition defeated those who understand basic economics. As an outsider I feel that I am perfectly placed to comment on their shortcomings. I’m still waiting for an answer to that simple question about where the money is going to come from.
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The problem was and continues to be the troublesome europhobes within the tory party. They have to be appeased regardless of the problems it causes for the rest of us because they could bring fown the government.
Who Is for first past the post now?
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In answer to Robert Hodge’s question to me I defer to David Martin who has captured the essence of my thoughts perfectly.
Who is we? I live in France and I will soon lose my right to vote in UK elections, so will be effectively a citizen of nowhere.
Do you live in France? Why don’t you go back to England and enjoy the “soverienty” that you don’t know how to spell? You’ll find that much of your country is owned by rich, anonymous foreigners who don’t even live there, looking for a safe haven for their ill-gotten wealth. Brexit will only do them a favour by allowing them to snap up more prime property at bargain prices.
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I have to admit that having lived in the UK for more than half my life, I believe that I shall always think of myself as English no matter for how long, or where, I may live abroad. Like most here, I have family in the UK, and my interest in UK politics is encouraged by the fact that having a ‘government pension’ I shall always have to pay UK income tax regardless of which country I may live in.
The people that I truly commiserate with are those who do not agree with the Referendum result, and yet were unable to vote in it due to the 15 year rule.
As for where the money will come from to keep the UK afloat after Brexit, I think that there will be a shift in the way that commerce and industry does business to take advantage of the fact that the EU imposed external borders tariffs will no longer apply. The UK will also be able to negotiate trading arrangements with any country once the EU is no longer preventing that. The format of the UK economy will change to take advantage of the new situation.
Also, let us not loose sight of the fact that the UK was doing considerable trade with Europe before we joined the Common Market, and no doubt there will continue to be substantial cross channel trade after Brexit.
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There are very few countries that are not already tied into their own trading groups and the UK will find that trading with the others will be subject to protective tariffs. As an individual country rather than a senior member of a major block it will hardly put ‘you’ in a strong position to do business. Yes, Britain will still do a lot of trade with Europe after Brexit but on less favourable terms. How will that be a step forward? British workers have got used to enjoying a high standard of living, I can’t see that that will be able to continue so the population will pay a high price for the knowledge that they are free to do as they please (until they actually have to deal with another country).
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Unlike most of you I have NO family…sadly my brother voted for Brexit because
he has a racist attitude he does not understand how awful this really this…
he is holding council with people he casts out. He is one who has judged people withought
even thinking.
My only real cousin lives in Lincolnshire and she voted and adores Nigel Ferrage!
UK is too crowded she says and everything will be ok in every way soon.
She has never been abroad!
My partner s sister is not British and lives there…she voted to leave and now she is moaning
about UK…
There is nothing…just nothing good about leaving the EU…nothing.
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People need to find someting/someone to complain about; it is newer one’s own fault. I wonder what they will complain about after leaving EU.
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It might be all those non white skinned people, who have come from our former overseas colonies, who need to do the low payed jobs, which the EU workers were doing…
I can see the headlines now… 
Martin
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I think we have a moral duty to allow them to travel to the UK, as well as an economic one, if we tighten up to ridiculous levels, migration from the EU.
Martin
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