Why is it a "very bad thing" to be a Tory?


(Bob Craske) #1

I don't want to start a flame war here - this is a serious attempt by me to understand a mindset I can't fathom - but I really have a problem with the automatic aggression that being even moderately successful attracts from some folks.


I remember, a few years ago, being offered a rather nice, top-end Rover SD1 for totally silly money and, as the seller was a friend who wanted some liquid dosh quick, I bought it from him. The almost instant hostility I then encountered from neighbours and customers alike forced me to sell it within 6 months, just to stop the flak. The damage to my reputation as a fair businessman took years to fix, and I got tarred with a "Thatcher-lover" brush that proved remarkably indelible. I learned something from that.


So, given the fact that we now have a shiny new government that's driven, it would seem, by naked capitalism, I've a small theoretical question:


Imagine 2 people, in identical financial circumstances, who each have gifted to them £500.


Person 1 celebrates with a few pints down the pub with his mates and a slap-up Chinese dinner, treats himself to some new trainers, buys an ultra-wide screen TV and puts £100 aside for a rainy day as a sensible precaution.


Person 2 goes to the supermarket and, for £100, lays in a large stock of beans and washing powder on special offer so he saves money on the purchase and also won’t have to replenish them for 6 months. Then he buys a clearance stock of LED light bulbs from Ebay for £150 with which he equips his house in order to reduce his electricity bill by 50% for the next 5 years. Finally he buys a bicycle with the remainder so he doesn’t have to pay for bus fares to get to work any more.


6 months later Person 1 has £100 in his rainy day fund which has remained static.

Person 2 meanwhile has £100 in his rainy day fund from the savings he’s made on the beans, washing powder, LED lights and the bus fare savings from using his bicycle.


2 years down the line and person 1 has £100 in his rainy day fund which has remained static.


Person 2 now has £300 in his rainy day fund from the ongoing savings from his earlier purchases. He DID have £400 but spent £100 on more special offer consumables which will save him more money.


6 years down the line and person 1 has £100 in his rainy day fund which has remained static and his trainers and TV have worn out.

Person 2 is now a rich Tory trougher because he’s got loads more money than person 1 and ought to be forced to share it with person 1 so he can buy new shoes and a telly.


Why? :confusion-shrug:



(Shirley Morgan) #2

Hilary Agree wholeheartedly with your 3rd and 5 paras, but see my reply to Robert also.


(Shirley Morgan) #3

Robert, I did the PAYE payroll as well as company accounts for many years before retirement, so know how the system works in terms of who gains or loses with tax threshold and N I contributions but I still dont have a problem with those earning more paying more, and/or the the minimum wage being raised. However if the government reduced employers contributions, that would leave more money in the employers pot to increase the lower and minimum wages paid’ if employees then paid more tax, it goes towards redressing the balance if not entirely. I also suggested in an earlier reply that VAT be raised on luxury goods, as it was back in the 70’s when fitted kitchens were deemed a luxury back then. If it was removable and portable it was a different rate to immovable and fixed! Do t remember which way round then, that was husbands industry. I didn’t join the company till we bought it when OHs boss retired in 1982’ so we 'borrowed some of the purchase price on a personal loan and also took a 2nd mortgage on our house to make up the difference, knowing but also hoping that based on ‘the books’ we could produce a good 5 year financial plan for the bank. OH had worked through all aspects of his ‘trade’, apprentice carpenter, to salesman and designer before we owned the business. we didn’t rely on handouts during our marriage, (47 yrs this year, although separated, not legally) just over 2 years now, so there’s not much I don’t know or haven’t learnt about surviving during tough times, especially when there wasn’t much money when the kids were small. It is possible to make ends meet if you are prudent and determined! That attitude is what is missing from a lot of younger people now I think, based on what I watch or hear on UK tv/radio or read online! unions and some denationalisation didn’t help the economy either,amazingly there was no mention of the Unions, as I recall and there weren’t many political interviews or discussions that I missed on TV.



While writing this just hear on Bbc news the new cabinet lineup, and other appointments with lots more women - Hooray - and different faces, which gives mea modicum of hope that some things if not all, will change for the better for a society that needs some changes. So on that note I’ll finish with the though that



where there’s a Will there’s a Way and that still applies today.


(Jane Williamson) #4

That is the whole point, you never know.


(Robert Scotton) #5

I'm jesting with you.....but they didn't exactly spring to mind did they ;o)))


(Jane Williamson) #6

I am sure there are.


(Robert Scotton) #7

There are always exceptions to every rule.

I was talking generally and of the tory voters I have met. Bear in mind I used to live in Norfolk/Suffolk, surrounded by land owning tory voters. If my perception is misguided it is simply because of where I lived??? Who knows.

My father would be a tory voter but they aren't right wing enough for him.....he was hankering after a UKIP vote this time round but in the end voted lib dem in a failed attempt to keep labour out of Norwich south ;o))

I chuckled........keep up the good work!!

It's a shame there aren't more tory voters like you.


(Jane Williamson) #8

Robert that is why I set up the Gloucestershire branch of Medical Foundation for the Care of Victims of Torture (as it was then known), because I am so self serving and insensitive/indifferent to the struggles of others. Why I gave my time giving Reiki treatments to refugees.
I don’t think so.


(Hilary Jane Dunk) #9

Hi Shirley,

Everyone (in work or on a taxable pension),benefits when the tax threshold is raised, surely ?

It is true that there is an unhealthy, 'I want it now and I can't wait culture....

I wish the government (any government), would outlaw credit cards with interest set above say, 15%.....I cut all my cards up a couple of years ago and it amazes me that I still regularly get sent 'pre-approved offers' with my name on it....for cards with punishing interest rates of 'only ' 39% apr......absolutely appalling and 'reasonable offers like this are still being advertised on TV.

We many not want to live in a 'nanny state' ...but I don't like the 'buyer beware' attitude either...

It would be good if the politicians who, as part of their job make it their business to be informed about financial services and how the banking world operates, would adopt a "Lets look after people" attitude when it comes to things like this......

Whatever happened to Bank on Dave ?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/femail/article-2163604/Dave-Fishwick-How-self-millionaire-helped-firms-unable-loans-home-town.html


(Robert Scotton) #10

Shirley, everyone benefits from the threshold being raised. It's the bit you can earn before tax. Currently it's £10600 I believe which means you can earn £200 per week before any tax is paid. Lowering the tax rate on the other hand means very little for the low earner but far more for the wealthy. I agree that the minimum wage is a joke and needs changing, big time. Bear in mind mind you that SMIC here at 9 or 10 euros sounds pretty good until you factor in the tax they pay. I think it is nearly half but I stand to be corrected on that???


(Shirley Morgan) #11

hi Hilary while I agree with a lot of your reasoning, don’t forget that to raise the tax threshold to £15’000 would only benefit only those earning less than that amount tand lessen the income to the treasury and most of those in the poverty bracket or in Zero Contracts won’t probably earn that! I’d sooner see a slightly lower than 15 threshold but a mandatory increase in the minimum hourly rate as well as a slightly higher rTe for those earring above that. I’m nearly 68 now but when half that age, even if we didn’t ‘like’ paying tax, we were grateful if we were earning enough to ‘have’ to pay tax. that’s how our generation used to think then. I was a Working mum back then,encouraging our 2 boys to work hard at school, get decent qualifications and hopefully they would also have good jobs when they left higher education. I am thankful that both did. If we couldn’t afford something we didn’t buy it, until we were earning enough to pay for it, even if over a short fixed term personal loan, credit or a mortgage to buy our house. In 1975 the boys and me (after school queued up outside the local district council offices, my husband took over after finishing work and stayed all night, but we were successful in being granted our 10% deposit to buy our 1st house, we only just could afford the monthly repayments on a council mortgage and had just £6+ in the bank at the time. Then as now, monthly rents were more costly than mortgage repayments!

None of that changed our aspirations though to own our own home and in the 3 times we moved from then till coming to France in 2008, were just when mortgage interest rates rocketed. I’m sure we weren’t the only ones here Caught out by those occasions back then.

however, personally and politically I am still a caring person, so those aspirations or my job (no educational qualifications for me except RSA and GCE English language)

It’s not just politicians who need to change, the people have to change also and start taking more responsibility for their own financial actions and transactions. I do accept, because this hasn’t happened over the last couple+ of decades and there Now 2 or more generations of families who were living in a Culture of ‘the state will pay’ this is a culture that needs to change also, but there are also so many different aspects of UK society that weren’t there when I was younger, in my humanist based political opinion, that I don’t like now.

However I was heartened to see the maturity in so many of the young people interviewed on TV over the last few weeks, that I hope they will stay engaged with the political/social system/scene and do what they can to help bring about change for their own and younger generations. Will check out your links later.


(Shirley Morgan) #12

Thanks Peter and hello to Vic Again also x
yes saw your next post and check out heart.org.uk - thT site will answer lots of your questions. there is also a good forum on Health Unlocked.org. both are UK websites. H U you would need to join to pRticipate in the forums, ask questions, get answers, all from people in similar situations, all brief and to the point generally they don’t develop into social discussions. It’s a NHS or UK Gov sponsored site I think and Cover almost all health conditions or queries.
I was so long answering cos just been checking out my blood test results, looking for HDL and LDL, both come under heading of Triglycerides. 26 items on my last blood test, but not for Cholesterol, 2012 was my last one for that as far as I can see. good luck with your search.


(Shirley Morgan) #13

Bob, Welcome to SFN encore! Good job there’s lots of us good guys and gals on here :slight_smile:


(Shirley Morgan) #14

celeste thats great news, I’ll check out your suggestions. thanks a lot!


(Robert Scotton) #15

Excellent idea Hilary and thanks for posting it.....;o))


(Hilary Jane Dunk) #16

Hello all,

Having read most of the other posts, I think that the Conservatives are back in precisely because people see through and reject arguments like 'they are out of touch...or they just don't care'....in the same way that the large vote for UKIP (not reflected by the number of seats acheived shows that people see through the fatuous rascist tag).............I'm not saying that people have a great deal of respect for politicians generally, but in the main they are trying to do a very difficult job....imagine getting bogged down in all those interminable commitees ! They all make policy mistakes usually when things have been rushed through ...like the 'silly' bedroom tax....

As for the 'Right to Buy', that has been a great thing for social mobility and transforming peoples lives...I took advantage of it as did many of my labour voting colleagues (teachers, school helpers, office staff, secretaries, cleaners and caretakers..) The needs to be I think a large programme of mixed housing, some of which is protected....(Key workers etc) and the not eligible for the right to buy for at least 10 years.....+ help to buy schemes including schemes that involve people in building their own eco homes etc...really open things up more...

After Gordon Browns tenure, and the shock details of just how big the deficit was ....and with some signs of some kind of recovery, people weren't prepared to risk an 'about turn'. I encountered the 'yar boo sucks- We hate the Tories' mantra whilst a student...I've always hated it as it is such a crude thing to bundle people together in that way and 'tar them all with the same brush'. David Cameron is, I believe, fundamentally a good human being. You can't go through the process of having the heartbreak and living with the day to day needs of a severely disabled child and be 'out of touch'....even if it is cushioned by a large wad of cash...

I do agree that we must have tax reform and one reason why I voted Liberal last time (not this), was because I felt it would temper the Tory imput and they had promised to make the first £10,000 tax exempt which I have wanted for years to see happen (I like it to go to £15,000 next). George Osborne, take note...

And please, let's do this........such a good idea...why don't they do it ?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qYtNwmXKIvM

MY WISH FOR THIS PARLIAMENT........

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ghKdH1iJBc


(Peter Bird) #17

I'm your no.1 pal Shirley (and Vic says 'hi' too). Pity i'm too far away to share the occasional 'apéro' ! Interesting thing you said about drinking tea etc. I''m now writing a topic about that and cholesterol etc.


(Peter Bird) #18

Nah, you're ok mate - don't waste good rhubarb, insert it a nice crumble 'à la Milne' instead.

By the way, which part of France are you actually moving to ? (obviously somewhere quite posh !


(Shirley Morgan) #19

Yuk and hic also! think it’s my body thats already over the yardarm, too much tea these days - I miss my glasses of red wine - my non alcoholic cirrhosis liver doesn’t tho :slight_smile: I think now might be the time to re-assemble my friends list! When I looked, the page said " you don’t have any friends" aw how sad is that!


(David Rosemont) #20

I obviously don't live in the UK anymore so am not necessarily the best person to comment on the situation in the UK. Quite apart from the political issues whci we have been debating so much here one thing I have noticed is that at least in London and the South East the speed of life, the noise, the pollution, the need to get on, the great proximity of other people all seem to exacerbate general irritation with those other people. I can't stand people who push in front of queues, won't give their seats to ladies etc, play loud music in the street or on buses, throw litter, blow smoke in your face etc but generally I don't even make the slightest comment, just well up in anger. I did once threaten to beat a man with my walking stick if he persisted to smoke a joint in my rail carriage (my very ill wife was with me) and I mean't it, and he obviously believed me because he called me a nutter and fled! I will ask my sons if their perception is that anger is now in daily evidence? Of course there were some riots in London a few years ago but they were in reasonably well off places and seemed to be more about grabbing expensive gear rather than anything else. There seems to be a coonection between densely populated areas and a desire for full participation in the goodies of modern life. Trappism has some advantages.