WOW ! What a change for the better....did you know about this?


(Hilary Jane Dunk) #1

I didn't.....fantastic if it's true......about b*****y time.......It always struck me as terrible that this wasn't part of the benefits of being in the EU...I am a bit gobsmacked as I have only just 'happened' across this article...





(Wendy Grady) #2

Thanks Shirley et Simon encore une fois. I intend to visit the CPAM office on Friday because I’ve just discovered on the ameli site that there are exceptions to the requirement for 3 months stable residency. One of these is “Si vous êtes inscrit(e) dans un établissement d’enseignement …” So as I’m registered on a University Dalf course perhaps this will be okay. Might as well go and talk to them anyway!


(Simon Armstrong) #3

Shirley - it may say that in YOUR book but the big legal book gives Wendy 3 months from arrival to declare residency. Always polite to let new arrivals unpack first! :-)


(Shirley Morgan) #4

" We actually arrived 17th December" - is what Wendy write on Sunday - in my book that means they took up residency in 2015 NOT 2016 - if they arrived at their new home on that date or any one before 31st December 2015.

Which perhaps again will mean or would have meant they would ha e to fill in a Tax Return for 2015- I’d just keep quiet now Wendy with the Impots!

CPAM take the actual date of the day you go and register with them as your start of eligibility into the Health system if it’s them you want to Register with Wendy. You have to deal with all
Various offices/departments differently as Simon and Andrew say according to their own separate rules & regs and your circumstances. Joint income for Tax, individuals for health and then whichever system according to employment status. I’m just pleased I’m retired and was on arrival 12 Jan a few years ago! Welcome to France anyway :slight_smile:


(Simon Armstrong) #5

Wendy - Ameli / CPAM - essentially the same organisation. You would normally return your application forms to your local CPAM. Just follow the instructions on the application form.

If you have a Taxe d'Habitation or Taxes Foncières bill in your name - your Numéro Fiscal will already be on it.

Again - as a French resident from 01 Jan 2016 - your first income tax return will be due in May 2017. You normally have until the end of May, beginning of June to submit your declarations - it varies by year and by department. You most certainly have more than 2 weeks!!

You can download the forms from the impots website here : Impots - Download Forms ....

But Hey!, if you want to go along this April (a whole year early!!) and pick up some blank forms then feel free! :-)


(Wendy Grady) #6

Pauline - the reason we told the Hôtel des Impôts of our residency was partly to establish the beginning of our 3 months, so we ( or at least I) could get the carte vitale and into the Fench health care. Although reading the application form from ameli it looks like you just have to attach household bills (eg EDF). Simon - I didn’t realise you have to also register with CPAM.

Anyway it seemed like a good idea to tell the tax office to get all the records straight from the beginning. They entered our details onto the computer, but didn’t issue a number yet.

The ‘first revenue declaration’ form is helpful Simon, which document is it an annexe to? At the tax office they told us we would need to go back at the end of April ( I think) and request the blank forms from them, we would then just have 2 weeks to complete and return.



I’m sorry this has wondered a bit off topic from the original post!


(Simon Armstrong) #7

Ok Pauline, I was referring to the incorrect 'statements' you made yesterday (aka information you gave).

You said : 'the only way you get onto the tax office computer is after you have filled in your first tax declaration, then they process it and that's what generates your taxpayer number and that's when you start to exist as a taxpayer.'

That's incorrect - for the reasons I've already stated.

You said: 'I think it's more than likely that they won't actually have any record of you yet and when it's time to make your first declaration in May 2017, it will be up to you to go and get the tax forms.'

That's incorrect - they will most definitely have a record of you way before then! Also - tax forms can be printed directly from impots.gouv.fr

Then, you have gone on to say : 'As I recall in the UK because it is HMRC's obligation to send you a form if it wants you to fill one in, whereas here it is your obligation to take the initiative.'

That's incorrect - HMRC are most certainly not obliged to send you any forms, in fact most people complete their returns via Self Assessment online (clue in the name!). Even if HMRC don't request a tax return from you, it is your legal responsibility to declare any relevant revenue or gains. So - you need to 'take the initiative' in both countries - it's no different.

It's important to clear up these misconceptions - especially for new arrivals. :-)


(Pauline Ann Smith) #8

I don't think I gave any information did I? I was just trying to warn somebody against thinking that the tax office keeps some kind of register of people that it has to send tax forms to in the future, and telling them your here puts the ball in their court. As I recall in the UK because it is HMRC's obligation to send you a form if it wants you to fill one in, whereas here it is your obligation to take the initiative. Thought it might be useful but sorry I spoke.


(Simon Armstrong) #9

Pauline - nothing significant has changed regarding tax residency in recent years. Wendy has done exactly the right thing - many don't in an effort to remain 'under the radar'! The information you have given is incorrect.

At the risk of sounding like a broken record (!) - if you reside in France for 3 months, with the intention of staying, then you should register with your local tax office (and CPAM - the original subject of this discussion). Read the pdf document First Revenue Declaration above - section b deals specifically with the tax registration formalities for brand new arrivals.

Your tax ID number (Numéro Fiscal) will most likely already have been issued, or at least allocated, for your Taxes Foncières and maybe even your Taxe d'Habitation. The same ID number will be used for your Impôt sur le Revenu et Prélèvements Sociaux and, where applicable, ISF (Wealth Tax) - when they kick in.

Wendy can print off the forms for her first declaration from the Impôts website - any time she likes (for the relevant year of course!).


(Pauline Ann Smith) #10

Wendy, I'm not quite sure what you mean by Registering at the Hotel des Impots. Did they give you a tax number? Unless things have changed the only way you get onto the tax office computer is after you have filled in your first tax declaration, then they process it and that's what generates your taxpayer number and that's when you start to exist as a taxpayer. So, I would be cautious about thinking that you've registered and you can cross that off your list because they will send things out to you when the time comes. I think it's more than likely that they won't actually have any record of you yet and when it's time to make your first declaration in May 2017, it will be up to you to go and get the tax forms. Unless as I said things have changed in recent years.


(Wendy Grady) #11

Thanks very much for your help, Simon and Andrew. I’ve not had time to read the document yet, but will be useful I’m sure. Yes we did state Jan 1st for residency to try to simplify matters. (Well simplify is obviously the wrong word!). We actually arrived 17th Dec. I think autoentrepreneurs would be good for us eventually, but we’re not yet sure whether our ideas will work and I’m concerned about getting health care, so would like to try and play by the book first.


(Andrew Hearne) #12

oh dear, my skim reading skills aren't what they used to be! The devil is in the detail, it'll depend on what effective start date they take. If they're going to be auto entrepreneurs then the easiest thing by far is to register and set things up that way - it'll be quicker and easier and they'll be with the correct caisse from the outset ;-)


(Andrew Hearne) #13

If you're going to be an auto entrepreneur then you won't be with the cpam but the rsi, cipav or msa depending on your activity ;-)


(Simon Armstrong) #14

Hi Andrew - maybe I have misunderstood but Wendy said......

'We moved here late December 2015 and have declared residence at the Hôtel des Impôts from Jan 2016.'

After all - she does have up to 3 months from arrival to declare residency. Even if she did have to declare this May - it would only be pro-rata for December 2015 as far as revenue is concerned. If Wealth Tax (ISF) is an implication then that's a whole different ball game....:-O

Maybe Wendy could clarify what date she gave her Tax Office?


(Andrew Hearne) #15

Except that she registered in déc 2015 so will need to fill out her return for 2015 as she was living here, or am I missing something, I've been at work for a while already...!


(Simon Armstrong) #16

Wendy your tax office are wrong! Not unusual - welcome to France! A new French resident as of Jan 2016 will make their first tax returns in May 2017 relevant to their global income and assets. I’ve attached the official text covering this very issue - paragraph c being the relevant text. So, unless there has been a dramatic change to tax law, your tax office have got it wrong.


(Wendy Grady) #17

My reply to this obviously got lost (?). My husband is hoping to start as Autoentrepreneur and, although I may do this later, I would like to register with ameli/CPAM first in order to get the carte vitale. So the cotisations I was referring to would be those on the previous year’s income - something to do with CMU I think, but it’s late and I’ve got confused again!


(Andrew Hearne) #18

they'll want to know what you earnt eslewhere...!


(Wendy Grady) #19

Thanks Simon, this is what I suspected. Surprisingly when we registered at the Hotel des Impots we were told that we will need to submit a French tax return this year in May 2016, even though we had no income here last year.


(Simon Armstrong) #20

Hi Wendy - sadly the cotisations are calculated on your total household 'taxable' income for the previous calendar year. You will complete your first French tax return in May 2017 for the period 01 Jan - 31 Dec 2016.

Assuming you're not working and are not in receipt of a UK state pension then, when you submit your application for affiliation to the Assurance Maladie (in April) - they will no doubt come back to you requesting evidence of income for Jan - Dec 2015.