Very well said Vero
The point is that negative racial stereotypes can hide in âhumble pantoâ just as easily as the character of Sambo (and others) in Childrenâs literature.
The new drag is all about drag kings; cis women dressing up as men, and cis gendered women doing traditional drag, which is very intriguing as it immediately removes any notions of it being some chauvinistic display of hatred towards women by homosexual men. More and more theyâre coming to the forefront, in the US and UK anyway, I know almost nothing about the the French drag scene (RPDR France seemed so cheap and poorly made unfortunately compared to its various other versions I couldnât stomach more than the first episode, not that Iâm a huge viewer of any). Although of course that RPDR type of thing is actually quite old fashioned, itâs ironic that many people consider that ânew dragâ and it is compared to Lily Savage and Danny LaRue, but from what I understand it doesnât really represent current drag as youâd see it in the best clubs around the world which as Iâve said strikes a much more âanything goesâ tone with men, women, Non-binary and whatever else all encouraged to perform and create a memorable performance in whatever appearance they desire and focus and success being more about the art of performance than adopting a pair of big fake titties and a long wig and pretending to be some caricature of a woman. The Drag Race issue is ironically that itâs largest audience are heterosexual women who seem to want that old school stuff. There certainly is a hell of a lot of misogyny within the homosexual male community though, thereâs no doubting that.
I have spent the last 4 years doing an in depth study of my ancestry. During the 18th century my ancestors were heavily involved at Liverpool and Bristol in shipping and customs and the wider family were well to do land owners in Dorset. There is no doubt that their wealth came from the slave trade era be it by direct slave trading or goods used to facilitate it.
I cannot and would not apologise for their lives as they lived it according to those times.
I think there is boundless common knowledge available of all those years ago which cannot be changed nor should it. It is our past, our heritage and the idea of removing monuments, changing panto scripts or any other supposed do gooder act will not change that. We should learn from the past but I dont think the worlds current population are good students in the class of life.
Lots of hot air and that is what this planet really can do without.
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You canât expect it make any sense Billy - the modus operandi of these silly stories is to take some tiny grain of truth - eg. some silly argument in an am-dram group - and distort and exaggerate it to suit the propaganda story they knew they were going to write before they started.
Asking sensible questions like why not adapt the production instead of abandoning it - or indeed what on earth a non-story about an obscure am-dram group not doing a play is doing in a national newspaper - immediately expose the fact that it is nothing more than propaganda. Why do people fall for it?
Again, you have it upside-down JohnBoy - it is precisely statues of slavers, etc, that try to change history, by concealing the dirty origin of their wealth behind a respectable image, and it is those that tear down the statues that help reveal our true history.
Similarly, there is no âpanto scriptâ - there are hundreds, indeed probably thousands of versions of the Aladdin and other panto stories - they have been changing for hundreds of years, and will continue to do so, as every generation remakes them for changing times. Now that is real, living, history.
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@kirsteastevenson itâs specifically the Drag Race and the irony of heterosexual women lapping it up presumably feeling edgy which I was thinking of, but also the common perception of drag, which isnât necessarily the same as current drag in the best clubs in the world. I agree with you though, overall 
Your opinion as always Geoff. There has been enough publicity to tell one and all the true stories behind the statues. Without them there is no reminder for future generations to ask, who are they, what did they do, why are they there, leaving nothing to help reveal our true history.
A statue doesnât change history, it is there to remind us of the past be it good or bad.
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I think it works both ways, doesnât it?
We happily see panto stories being adapted to suit todayâs opinions, but thatâs just what we do by keeping statues of slavers up, isnât it?
In the past, slavers - or their beneficiaries - would whitewash their past by donations (or make recompense, depending on the state of their souls). Nowadays, most people see the statue of a slaver and use it as an educational resource, either for themselves or for others.
âThose who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.â
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What percentage of the British public do you honestly think knew the true history of Edward Colston before his statue was removed? Iâd hazard a guess at less than 1%. It was, as I said, actually its removal that educated people as to its real import - and now itâs in a museum with proper explanation of the slave trade and the UKâs role in it. In view of these facts (not opinions) to argue that the statue previously, just by its mute presence, did more to explain history, is to argue that black is white.
There are statues that serve useful purposes, or have aesthetic merit - those on memorials indeed remind us of history, good and bad (the variation in France certainly embraces both - from heroic warriors to mourning mothers). But many statues are simple tributes to the great and the good - and if the person so tributed - like Colston - turns out to be not so great, then removing the statue is the right and proper course.
Or would you argue that, say, the statue of Jimmy Saville, that was also quietly removed, should have stayed to teach us all not to abuse children?
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What does actually that mean? Iâm naively querying the criteria ! What makes them the âbestâ? To me, drag invariably seems like suprficial parody.
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As an art historian, Iâd gently suggest that very few public statues have âaesthetic meritâ. Instead some may acquire and accumulate symbolic cultural value (that can of course, also diminish over time).
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I agree few public statues have any aesthetic merit - but I think some do, eg. Rodinâs Balzac on the Boulevard du Montparnasse.
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Ask @kirsteastevenson who referred to
I said I didnât think the popular image of drag would be the same as that to be found in TBCATW.
The statue of Edward Colston was removed/toppled far from quietly 300 years after his death. That of Jimmy Saville was removed as you say quietly but only 1 year after his death as his crimes were revealed and rightly so.
Edward Colstons actions were not considered crimes at the time but added to the wealth of Bristol for many years. For a mob to topple it after so much time was a stunt designed to bring attention to a practice long resigned to the history books.
Perhaps Nelsonâs column should also be toppled for persecution to the French at Waterloo (edited to Trafalgar)
I should add that my daughter studied at Bristol University, an establishment built largely from tobacco trading which of course was closely linked with slavery.
Perhaps my daughter gained her degree indirectly from the benefits of slavery and should hand back her history degree?
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Ah - not by the UK. That surely is the (very revealing) rub.
But your argument then in principle is that itâs good to remove statues of evil people if they died recently, but not if they died less recently. So would you be happy to see a statue of Hitler, for example ? He didnât die last year, did he ? Or is 70-odd years still not long enough to protect him ?
Perhaps we can narrow the range down - what about the many statues of Stalin that were removed in the former communist countries from the 1990s (and still happens) ? Presumably, using the argument based on how long they were there, this is a good thing if they were recent, but bad if theyâd been there years ? Or perhaps that argument is fatuous ?
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Geoff, only you could take us from Mr Wishee Washee to Rodin in one foul swoop ! 
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I have no argument, merely stating my point of view. I leave it to you and your mission to clean up the past and create an Eden of the future.
We all have blood on our hands.
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Depends on context - in public space or in a museum. Budapestâs Memento Park is an interesting solution. Mementopark
By contrast most Nazi era Nordic Classical sculpture has been in locked in a US warehouse since the end of WWII.
And then thereâs this:-
Ah, Wishee Washie the son of Widow Twanky and her Chinese laundry, great panto. I played the part of a chinese policeman of which there were 5, Ben Hi, Ben Low, Ben Too, Ben Fro and Ben Down.
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Not, âWun hung loâ ?
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