An advantage of joining HM armed forces.
But perhaps not if there is to be war.
The UK police have no connection to the armed forcesA lot of people join the military to get a professional trade serve while they are studying and sign up for a specific number of years With the police people were considering joining to get a degree and then going
Not suggesting police are the forces. Just suggesting an alternative route for âfreeâ education.
TBH I have been finding the whole degree thing somewhat bizarre for quite decades now. Often science graduates seem to have little more idea of science than a school leaver with A levels, and even though I know that canât be true, it often feels like they have little idea about whatâs going on.
I would agree that a degree should be about training students how to think and how to independently acquire knowledge. I see a PhD as being able to demonstrate that they can plan a course of action based on acquired knowledge, and then defend any additional understanding that comes from that action.
This does make me wonder if we might not be better off letting the brightest and best go to university, while everyone else had a vocational approach to education. It would develop those who wonât really gain from their degrees, possibly giving them a stronger skill set than a university could.
For clarity, I have no PhD, and got my degree through part-time study and day release. University might have been fun, but possibly less beneficial, and I do what I love.
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Well, I once played Wishy Washy in Tabriz, Iran; crowd o students howled with laughter. Thought the lead was like The Man from Rasht!
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True, but Iâd add that the critical distinction is that the research is original and this factor distinguishes a PhD from an MPhil, or the more recent (and to me seemingly pointless) MRes.
Re p/t study, I did my Masters and PhD while working full time - nothing to be ashamed about. Furthermore, I had the immense pleasure of teaching many OU students who had MSc or science doctorates and were doing p/t Arts & Humanities BAs out of sheer curiosity and love of learning. Sadly when the OU was obliged to align its tuition fees with traditional universities, this category of student disappeared.
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The French seemingly traditional artisan system is interesting for continuing to train people like stone masons and other practitioners of traditional crafts (as distinct from sculptors working in stone). It seems to have remained close to the mediaeval guilds, masters and journeymen, whereas the post Renaissance creation of arts academies placed art and architecture amongst the âhigherâ forms of activity.
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I think that rather highlights the problem we are discussing.
I would suggest that there are plenty of of very bright people who do not go to university, & am convinced that the âbestâ are spread across the whole system.
Assuming that going to university sets someone above others entrenches societal division.
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Beware the torries under the beds.
I have assumed that university is about education and training. If training and educating the brightest individuals in the country means that they can acheive more and better things then that seems to me to be a good thing. Of course not everyone will learn best in that kind of environment, which is why there should be other ways of learning and equipping too. I would suggest that the âpopularisationâ of university has simply devalued the degree, forcing ordinary people to take on debts they often cannot manage to get jobs that require them as a means of entry where O or A levels would have previously been adequate.
As for divisions, weâll always have those, as long as mankind is allowed independence of action and thought. Even in a system where a nominal equality is rigidly enforced, there will be those who rise to become more equal than others, flexing their coercive muscles like a playground bully flexes his biceps. I donât like divisions, but also expect them.
Absolutely. However, my point is that the brightest & the best are not only to be found amongst the alumni of universities.
I am concerned that there might be an assumption that if you havenât been along the path of academia that you are somehow inferior.
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Very true Badger - Oxford especially has been turning out stupid Tories for years !
What makes any individual wise, or good, is a complex of many influences. But it seems to me crazy to argue that learning does not generally add to the quality of our life experience and the contribution we can make back to society - down that line lies the Govian âthis country has had enough of expertsâ view, and in the end the fascist âdeath to intelligenceâ.
There is also a view - also mainly on the political right - that going to âthe university of lifeâ is somehow better than actually going to university. Problem is, in general kids that go to a real university also generally see more of life - they travel more, meet more people, from more different backgrounds, they party more, experiment more, have more opportunities. They probably have more âhard knocksâ too. Much of the time they spend âbook learningâ is generally spent by their non-university contemporaries on mind-numbing manual or routine office work that adds little to real life experience.
Some of the people I most admire, and am proud to call friends, missed out on university - and I got there, like anybody from a working class home, by luck - the new teacher whose youthful optimism saw something in a poor kid the world had already written off, etc⊠But those people I admire donât go round implying that itâs better not to go to university, not to learn. On the contrary, they place a really high value on education, they fight for their kids, and everybodyâs kids, to have the educational opportunities they missed out on.
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It that a view genuinely held believing the âreal worldâ is a better education , or born of ââyourâ sort donât deserve a Uni education, whereas âmineâ doâ?
I suspect that itâs often the latter.
One doesnât need a University education to become a millionaire, of course, but Iâm often struck by how the âpoor kid made good typesâ are frequently unremittingly awful people (Alan Sugar, Iâm looking at you).
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Indeed. people that tell those âself-made-manâ stories (and, curiously, they do always seem to be men, donât they?) are just immersed in self-justification - bad faith.
The truth is that - in the UK at least - if you come from a disadvantaged background the intervention of lucky circumstance is essential if you are going to move on to a more fulfilling life - and for most that means first being lucky enough to get an education.
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And having your assumptions challenged, and realising you arenât as brilliant as you thought, and that maybe your parents arenât always right, and finding out what you really want to do.
That said while I loved the time I spent at university, quite a lot of it seeing I took two âgap yearsâ which I spent at university in Germany so Iâd be the same age as everyone else when I started in the UK, I still think maybe Iâm a manual person and I might have liked to be making things. Maybe Iâll cash in my droits Ă la formation and retrain eg as a carpenter when I retire.
Possibly I shouldnât have gone to university at all.
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I couldnât agree more.
Weâve gone off the point of my comment, which was to object to the implication that only the âbrightest & bestâ go to university.
The mantra âeducation, education, educationâ is a good one. That doesnât have to be the academic path of âhigherâ education. Proper vocational training, apprenticeships, etc. should be open to all, maybe even obligatory is some form or another.
Sadly having an undereducated population seems to favour a certain kind of politician.
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Exactly - the extreme right disparage education for precisely this reason - they donât want people to question traditional authority in the form of ruling classes, religious traditions, etc.
But it goes further, right into the Gradgrind view that facts are good (eg, STEM) but humanities bad - and even further within this, down to the particular Tory terror of subjects like âmedia studiesâ - because the last thing they want is lots of clever people - especially from the working class - that can actually understand and expose the preservation of wealth and privilege through propaganda.
The pretence, of course, is that STEM subjects contribute more to the economy - a view that makes absolutely no sense in the UK, where arts and media are probably the most economically important industries (other than finance, which is a bubble).
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Thatâs just daft! I love a good panto. I even love a bad panto, where a whole village gets involved and even the little kids have a go - and it sometimes goes all Widow T-wanky. I worked in proper theatre for a fair few years and remember the (gay) âWidowâ scrawling on the PS wall, âA-lad-in time saves 9!â 
For the non-theatrical, thatâs the Prompt Side wall (i.e. stage left/audience right).
Prompt Side is always stage left, even if there is a âbastard promptâ, which is when the prompter is on stage right (or OP = Opposite Prompt).
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Speaking from experience, go for it 
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