In that case I think we should allow a sense of mystery to remain. 
Back on topic, the following are from a performance in 1970 of Humpty Dumpty
Me in the middle, long hair was the order of the day back then.
Me on the right.
The finale, great memories.
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Cop out! These are serious philosphical questions to which a lot of people out here would presumably like to see some answers 
We donāt need this uncertainty in the face of important questions that might concern many (obviously moderate) SF drinkersā¦
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Iām sure you donāt mean to butā¦ you do come across as ever so slightly patronising. I for one would really appreciate it if you could have a think about this before posting. Thanks!
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I thought about your post seriously for quite some time because it raised some interesting possibilities and afterwards I gave you what I thought was a serious, well considered and respectful answer. Nothing in it was intended to be patronising. So given your response, I have to ask was your question about helicopter pilots intended as a joke, or was it serious? I assumed it was serious and thoughtfully posed, and treated it as such, but if it was a joke, then sorry, but maybe you need to work on honing your delivery.
Not looking for an apology, but I was treating your post with respect and considerable consideration
My delivery is fine, thanks for asking and yes, entirely serious post. I work closely with the French military including helicopter pilots and training officers.
My comments about being patronising still stand
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But itās not really about helicopters, FFS we were discussing aesthetic understanding!
Instead, I think for whatever reasons, youāve taken offence by getting hold of the wrong end of the stick (not intended as a patronising observation).
Meanwhile, back on ācancel cultureā, āerasing historyā, etc - this is a really interesting developmentā¦
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I have mentioned on another thread my research into my family history and just today I was doing some final editing. The husband of my x4 great aunt was a bricklayer who lived at Stourpaine in Dorset. His nieghbours were the Drax family of Charborough Hall and park. The park is surrounded by what is believed to be the longest continuous brick wall in England containing some 3 million bricks of which some were laid by my x4 great uncle between 1840 and 1843. It is suggested that the bricks and labour was paid for by sugar profits from the west indies.
Drax Hall in Barbados is said to be worth about Ā£4.5 million.
The Drax estate in Dorset is said to be worth some Ā£150 million so perhaps Richard Drax could give back Drax Hall in Barbados to satisfy objections however I dont agree that he is in any way responsible for what his ancestors did when they first arrived in Barbados circa 1625.
Really???
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Maybe we can go and get lessons in comedy together, Cat
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I donāt think any of us is āresponsibleā for the actions of our ancestors - but thatās a different issue from responsibility for reparations. There are many universally accepted examples of victims being compensated by the beneficiaries or descendants of criminal actions or regimes, rather than the perpetrators themselves. War reparations, for example, are generally paid by the descendants - either collectively (eg. as a country) or individually (by the return of property, or payment of compensation). If, say, a painting confiscated by the Nazis (perfectly legally under their laws) were to be discovered tomorrow in Charborough Hall, Drax would have to compensate the original owners if he wanted to keep it.
I also note you mention the original date of the Drax family perpetration of slavery - this looks rather disingenuous - the subtext being āthis was all a very long time agoā - but this is not true. Slavery, and the Drax involvement in it, continued for over 200 years after that date - but for the slaves, having been kidnapped from their homes and stripped of all their possessions and livelihoods, the āemancipationā of the 1830s was largely a legal fiction, especially while the Navigation Acts were still in force. Only in the 1930s did the forced labour of slave families begin to unwind, with the first tentative trade unions - violently opposed by the plantation owners - and only in the 1950s did most black people in Barbados get a vote. Most assets in Barbados are still foreign (white) owned. This is the historical and the current reality - exploitation continues to this day, and families like Drax still have their ill-gotten gains. They could afford to give away 90% of their accumulated wealth and still be multi-millionaires.
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At Least we agree on one thing.
I note your various references to reparations and would agree that the agressor should be held to account for structual damaged caused when proven which in itself is never clear cut however extending that to all your references is I feel a contentious subject.
This is exactly my point. When a law changes then does that mean that all that was lawful before the change then becomes unlawful going forward, certainly not in my book. History cannot be changed.
Richard Drax is a Tory so I fully understand your loathing of him and his wealth but I do feel that as an individual he is a much easier target to chase than an organisation or country would be so returning to our agreed point: I donāt think any of us is āresponsibleā for the actions of our ancestors.
A truely Socialist point of view!
The Drax family of today accumulated much of thier wealth via intermarriage of wealthy families over hundreds of years which started long before intercontinental slavery helped to supplement their income. When that supplement ended it seems to me the Drax estate has continued to prosper so how can anyone possibly begin to suggest how much the Drax decendants or any other family, or country might or might not be responsible financially or otherwiseā¦ I have no doubt that locals around the Charborough Estate for 100s of years have been equally exploited when employed there and paid a pittence but that has always been the way of Britain and many other countries around the world.
Many of my ancestors worked on large estates as was the way many years ago and the satisfactory treatment of those employees at times was certainly questionable. Today the large estates have been replaced by big business who in turn expliot thier workers to get best gain. That is how the world works and also why it creates groups of objectors who want the rich to pay for what the objector seeās as a crime.
We can all be armchair critics of what we feel is wrong about the world but changing it is a much bigger task than any one person, organisation or country can achieve while ever human nature exists which it most certainly will. This is not my defeatist attitude but simply being realistic.
Well - quite. But you gloss over all the key issues - for example: Why are beneficiaries and descendants required to compensate victims of the Nazis, or of the Enver Hoxha regime - and many others - but not the victims of slavery? In both cases, the victimisation was legal (in at least one relevant jurisdiction) at the time. Why the double standard?
You are arguing, I assume, against any such reparations. If so, that is consistent - but surprising. I wonder what Ukrainians would say about it? That Putinās family should keep the wealth he has accumulated in perpetuity?
And it still doesnāt explain why most people, and governments that oppose slavery reparations, do seem to accept the double standard.
No you donāt - because I have none. Why would I? I know nothing about any of the family personally. Is this a version of the Tory myth of āthe politics of envyā? If so, you should know thatās just a propaganda soundbite to try to make what is really a principled stand for social justice look as petty and small-minded as Tories themselves. Donāt fall for it !
And none at all from its 400 year involvement in slavery and colonialism ? How do you think they pulled that off when all the other slave owners were making massive fortunes?
Whose nature? The slavers - or the enslaved?
Interesting how the appeal to āhuman natureā always seems to hold up criminals and warmongers and oppressors as models, rather than the peaceful and thoughtful and loving mothers and children and friends and colleagues and neighbours most of us experience most of the time.
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N Ben Doun?
Here is quite an interesting take on this, specifically East Germany victims of the Stasi
Seems that some victims are better off knowing while others need to āamputateā the past in order to recover.
I note the point made in the above report:
āThe vogue now is for confronting the past, for truth and reconciliation on the model of the commission that South Africa set up in 1996 to investigate the apartheid era. But this approach has its own problems, says historian Martin Jay of the University of California, Berkeley. Take reparations, which some might see as drawing a line under the past, and others as letting the perpetrators off the hook. āIf the reparations are paid, does that clear the ledger?ā Jay asks. āCan the perpetrators then say: āWeāve paid for the grievance, so shut up, stop bothering usā?ā
Mmmmā¦
My first thought is that it wouldnāt be a bad thing if the heirs of the victims stopped bothering the heirs of the perpetrators - this might mean that the legacy inequality had been properly addressed.
But Iām a bit distant from the āmoralā dimension - I tend not to think in terms of blame, guilt, etc at all (Iām just seeing that this might account for my differences with others on this subject). Rather, I see reparations more in terms of restoring a more equal distribution of wealth - which benefits everyone.
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Philosophically, I donāt think there is a better example of how we might go forward than in the example of Nelson Mandela
I wish humanity could follow these but we only have to look at South Africa today to see what politics will do to a great philosophy.
I agree but cannot imagine how to prize the spoils from cold dead hands
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As a former resident of S Africa, Iād suggest that not only was Mandela incredibly exceptional, but he raised the bar too high for his successors - Mbeke was supposed to be an African intellectual, but turned out to be an idiot who believed AIDs didnāt exist and then later argued that it could be cured with traditional medicines, Zumaās just been put back behind bars where he belongs, while the current incumbent, Cyril Ramaphosa is under investigation for corruption and may shortly be impeached.
Meanwhile some friends in rural Gauteng are enduring 21 hour power cuts which are longer than those in Kviv (though at least theyāre not under rocket attack)).
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Perhaps he recognised that he had to be forgiven too, and that made it possible for him to forgive in a way that those who held tight their sense of being wronged could never do.
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