Are You Bothered? Yet.....?


(Helen Wright) #81

It’s no doubt part of the $185 trillion dollar question…and how global debt now exceeds 225% of global gdp and can never be paid off…and how every single one globally owes $86,000 dollars…and how every child born is already in $86,000 dollars of debt as soon as they draw their first breath…

It would take more than a lifetime to even count to 185 trillion…let alone repay it…

Something will have to give…x :slight_smile:

(David Martin) #82

Has become?

(Helen Wright) #83

Maybe they will but I can’t see it…it’s an organic movement free of the contrived left/right divide…and other divisory tactics…

I don’t condone violence in any form and its not good that you felt frightened…

I heard a report that police were filmed getting changed into civilian clothing and then joining the protests as violent agitators…that the video kept being taken down as soon as it was uploaded…I’ve not been able to substantiate the report but it wouldn’t surprise me…

(Mat Davies) #84

It does seem wrong that most governments spend more than they collect. It is not possible to run a household in that way without financial ruin.

Everybody wants to pay less tax etc - whilst also receiving a certain level of service from the government.

(Helen Wright) #85

France is introducing the GAFA tax going after big tech but even so the anticipated revenue pales into insignificance when confronted by the purported global debt…

I think the whole financial system is a fraud…from the federal reserve to the central banks to the stock markets to the derivatives to the taxation system to the court system to the lobbyists …and ultimately nothing can be born from a fraud…

How we tackle it nationally and globally I’m not sure but I will continue to support those who feel that enough is enough whilst we work it out…non violently of course…x :slight_smile:

(Peter Goble) #86

@Helen6: “I think the whole financial system is a fraud…”

It may include fraudulent elements, Helen, but as I see it money is basically a system of exchange designed around symbols of value and worth, and the implicit trust and confidence that coins and promissory notes, those taken-for-granted symbolic representations of value and worth, still command.

If people lose confidence in the value of those symbols the whole system collapses, and what is going to replace it. As I remarked in an earlier post on the same subject, if all debt is wiped out and the counter set to zero, my bank balance and my monthly pension payments are set to zero with it. And I can’t eat the money in my trouser pocket or wallet, the former being ipso facto worthless.

So the financial system, albeit it flawed and prone to mismanagement and imbalances, has served many/most us all well if often unequally. It has led to the development of human skills, creativity enterprise and trade, and the growth of prosperity and mutualism. If it is dismantled, what would replace it? Crude barter, perhaps, and widespread larceny by the strong and ruthless?

(Helen Wright) #87

We have always had widespread larceny by the ruthless…they have devised systems in ucc and commerce that we can’t even begin to comprehend unless and until we have cause to ask for proof of claim…show me unequivocally where I personally allegedly owe this purported debt…

It is scary…but if the financial system crashes again which looks likely then surely to goodness when it does we can collectively come up with something better to replace it…everything will still be here…the sun will still rise…the oceans will still ebb and flow…the plants will still grow…the infrastructure such as it is will still be here…there has to be a better way forwards for humanity…???

(Peter Bird) #88

It’s been going on for centuries just about everywhere so nothing new here. Agent provocateurs come in all shapes and sizes…

(Timothy Cole) #89

Well our esteemed leader (Manu) will deliver a letter to us all here shortly setting out how he’s going to fix the country’s ills and address the demands of the GJ’s, should be good for a laugh.

(Nellie Moss ) #90

At some riots in London a few years ago, police officers were pictured changing their clothes It turned out that they were changing from their everyday uniform into public order kit

(Dan Wood) #91

Échauffourées à Saint-Macaire

D’autre part, mercredi soir à Saint-Macaire, des échauffourées ont éclaté entre gilets jaunes et gendarmes. Une patrouille de Langon a été prise à partie par une soixantaine de gilets jaunes qui s’étaient installés aux alentours du rond-point du Viaduc. Un véhicule de gendarmerie a été dégradé. Les militaires ont dû faire usage de la force pour dégager les manifestants. À la suite de ces événements, ce jeudi matin, deux personnes ont été interpellées.

(Jane Williamson) #92

Obviously, these people were out to cause significant economic damage and, given the amount of violence used and damage caused, I am surprised that only two people were questioned.

(Michael Archer) #93

Sometimes wonder how deep it all goes within the establishment, as to their motives and actions.

(Peter Goble) #94

I agree that the system is flawed, and it seems to be greed and avarice that corrupt its operation.

A number of eminent and highly successful entrepreurs have demonstrated that great wealth does not necessarily corrupt those who work to produce it; on the contrary it has often led to the huge flourishing of whole communities.

My mother was born in the beautiful garden village of Bourneville in Birmingham, handsome houses for workers with gardens and graceful tree-lined avenues. At the heart of the village Joseph Cadbury built a carillion that played sweet bell-music across the community every day, a fine sport and leisure park, schools for workers’ children, a swimming pool and well-designed shops, libraries and meeting-halls, all free to everyone. Still one of Brum’s most sought-after suburbs. The only thing he forbade was a public house to sell alcohol. Bournville is still “dry”.

And there are many other famous benefactors and activists who have used their financial flair to enormous public good.

(Jane Williamson) #95

Cadbury was a Quaker, like many other industrialists.
They would not take oaths, so were banned from entering university.
They always held truth, so people were happy to do business with them.
My grandfather, not a Quaker but a Liberal, whom I never met, was actually a pharmacist by profession, but provided free medical care for the workers in his jam factory.

(Ann Coe) #96

I visited the beautiful village of Bourneville many, many years ago before it became ‘touristy’. It was for business reasons and I was amazed by the layout and thougtfulness of the design.
Truly remarkable how one man had such vision.

(Jane Williamson) #97

Port Sunlight on The Wirral is another of these ‘industrial’ villages which are now desirable places to live.

(Helen Wright) #98

With huge respect I don’t think second home owners come under “elite”…???

The elite in my eyes are the top 1% who own most of the world’s wealth and land mass and who could eradicate poverty and hardship in the blink of an eye and still have plenty left over…

But more than that…the financial slavery system has become so seperated from the reality of life on Earth…and the abundant resources of Earth…

I hear Italy is on about and has costed out introducing a universal basic income…and yet again there is talk of currency backed by gold but surely even gold is only a representation of the actual value of we the people…???

(Paul Flinders) #99

It depends (as with so many things) on your point of view. If you live in some parts of the world you might find that “wealthy” out-of-towners have effectively priced the locals out of the market - this has happened in many picturesque parts of the UK (eg the Lake District). At that point people well may complain about the unwelcome influence of the “elite”.

There is, as Simon identified a slightly different dynamic in France. 2nd home ownership is a bit more common (I think the figure is approx 13% compared with 10% in the UK) but often people own 2nd homes because they inherited them and, although property prices are depressed in rural France it is mostly that there is a relative over-supply in those areas.

Personally I don’t feel terribly elite - we were not really able to move to a larger property in the UK because we kind of got trapped in an OK house in a cheap area but we have one of the nicer/larger houses in our location. The result is that to move to a usefully bigger house (or with a bit more garden space) we’d have to move to a more expensive area. In practice we could spend an extra £50k or more and not have anything to show for it except a nicer post code.

Note that none of this is with a terribly grand place at either end of the move - our current house is worth considerably less  than the national average and we might have been able to stretch to just over the national average - but that amount of money in Brittany bought us a house which is slightly larger than the one we have in the UK, with about 10x more land - it was a bit of a no-brainer.

However I am aware that we are (in a small way) contributing to the decline of the very thing that attracts us to buy property in France.

Well, that’s true - the top 1% have something like 99% of the wealth and the imbalance is only growing, I’d agree something needs to be done to redress this. However while it is a bit of a cliché it is also true that the way to improve the lot of the poor is not to impoverish the wealthy - there’s a lot of poverty going around and it is not that easy to eradicate.

For my money a good first move might be to stop pouring resources into weapons to kill “the enemy” with, and putting those resources into development instead. It’s just that I’m no longer naïve enough to think it very likely to happen.

I’d disagree with the last thing that you said - the Earth’s resources are not that abundant, and certainly finite. If there is one thing I think is a bigger problem than the imbalance between rich and poor it is our throwaway society, We need to learn to live within our means and quickly.

The idea of a “basic income” is quite an old one, I’m not totally convinced but it has some points in its favour.

As for returning to the Gold Standard" I’m not sure that would pan out (pun half intended)…


(Timothy Cole) #100

The often used ‘top 1%’ is a poor example of the gap between ‘rich’ and ‘poor’ IMO as it’s not that hard to be in this supposedly elite club, having a net wealth of $830,000 will get you in so simply owning a house in certain parts of London would do, Jeremy Corbyn has been a member for years as have many leftie MP’s and I’d say that several members of SFN (without realising it of course) also have the entry requirements.