Be interesting to hear TMs response to Boris's remarks!

Mandy my references have been about the burqa throughout. I am well aware of the difference and it is not I who am splitting hairs. The question has been about covering the face, not covering the eyes. You seem to want to divert the discussion away from its central issue, which is about (banning) the burqa, which is what BoJo opposed.

My case has rested on a woman’s right to choose her public garb, and the counter-argument is that Muslim women can’t choose because they are oppressed by their husband’s, the imam, or ‘their culture’ all of which I suggest is hear-say, and not based on first-hand experience by credible witnesses. Intelligent, credible women of my personal acquaintance tell me that they are not unduly influenced by their men, that they make their own choices and follow their conscience.

But some prefer not to believe them, because they are Muslims, and “they would say that, wouldn’t they?”

I’m not going to buy that line of unreason, and neither IMO should anyone else with half a brain.

I’m not diverting the discussion, you can all carry on the discussion about racism and women’s choices. I’m just pointing out that people are confusing the two types of dress. BoJo said that the burqa makes women look like “letter boxes” which is blatantly not possible as there is no eye slit in a burqa. This makes HIM both a racist and ignorant.

I’ll shut up now.

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In UK there is an epidemic of incipient mental illness among young and even pre-pubertal girls, who are driven to anxiety, school-avoidance, self-harm and eating-disorder caused by precocious objectification and bullying about their bodies, and preoccupation with body image. This is acknowledged as a major public heath issue by government, by teachers, social workers, mental health professionals, and - of course - parents.

Many would agree that the precocious sexualisation of children, and the use of ‘beach-ready’ sexualised images in advertising and on TV and social media plays a hugely significant part in this worrying development.

Should à firm line be drawn under this trend towards a corruption of western behavioural norms, or would that be regarded as repressive, or a sinister move towards the Islamisation of society? I only ask!

There is a slit in a letterbox, Mandy, covered by a protective slot. Also in a burqa, covered by a mesh grille.

So on all accounts Boris Johnson was out of line!
Is that the general vote on here?

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Why don’t you call a vote and find out Barbara !!
Think one person took over the discussion so hard to judge.

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Wrong, Michael. I discussed, so did others. I didn’t stop anyone joining in. Your comment may be valid, but I think it’s intended to shut me up. I won’t let you.

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No intention of shutting you up Peter but you do go on a bit.:wink:

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You don’t ‘Have’ to read Petes posts, not obligitory Mick :slightly_smiling_face:

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I don’t, well not after the the first 10 Bill.:grinning:

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Well there U go, you’ve solved ‘Your Problem’ :+1: :slightly_smiling_face:

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Mick, I have to agree with you there! :grin:I do indeed :zipper_mouth_face:. And thank you for not taking umbrage over my reply. I expected a kick up the bum.

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:rofl:

There will be an ahem cough…”internal inquiry”…no one will be allowed to comment until it’s over whilst they hope it will be forgotten about in the meantime…next time we blink he’ll be pm…maybe…

I’m not racist nor xenophobic…I do see a concerted effort to make people feel ashamed of being white in much the same way as being made to feel ashamed of being English…when it’s upper class toffs like bojo who are the very worse representations of the white race…

I don’t feel that religion…any religion belongs in “politics”…all this media distraction when Israel is bombing Gaza again…collective punishment and ethnic cleansing on a helpless population…most of which are children…it’s a war crime…latest victims are a pregnant woman and her 18 month old little girl…a busload of children burnt to death in Yemen and millions in Yemen on the brink of starvation…both Israel and Saudia Arabia funded by “Britain”…

Israel made the BBC change the wording of their tweet about the murder of the pregnant mother and her toddler in Gaza…

Freedom flotilla ships and their peaceful crew violently arrested by the idf…plus medical supplies plus all money and phones and video equipment…peaceful people trying to bring an end to the siege on Gaza…kidnapped and arrested in international waters…

Speaking as a white english woman…I do NOT consent to any of it and NONE of it is being done in my name…

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I always, admire the free-running passion of your commentaries, Helen6, but I’m puzzled by your feeling that someone is trying to make you ashamed of being white? Who is that person, or who constitute that coercive community? I don’t “feel” white, though I am fair-skinned and blue-eyed, any more than I feel O rhesus negative. To be white is a self-defined experienced, sometimes other defined. In Africa I was often greeted cheerfully by children “Musungu” (literally “White”, both noun and adjective).

I feel no shame for being white or fair-skinned, but I do accept some residual řesponsibilty for the past harm and indignity inflicted by white people (principally men) on non-white people, particularly black Africans and their descendants, by whites because and only because they were black.

There can be no excuses for this, it is not cancelled out by good done to Africans, especially as the notion of racial superiority still persists, and is still acted on it today’s world, and no less harmfully and no less in a state of denial, rationalisation, and sometimes with lustful savagery.

If the enduring racist ideology that is part of the experience of many English men and women is not recognised for what it is, how will it be purged. And do I not have some řesponsibilty for helping to purge it? Do you feel ashamed of me?

So it will be helpful to me if you can spell out what kind of message causes you to feel shame.

Pete (my new fresh moniker, thanks to Bill Morgan, who spirited it into being :ok_hand::grinning:)

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Sorry Peter but I feel no guilt, responsibility or whatever for what happened 200 years ago or more as it is simply part of history. All I can do is treat everyone (regardless of colour or religon) with respect etc in the hope it is reciprocated.

There is no one making me personally feel ashamed of being born white and English Pete…but I do see it and feel it in the…how to describe it (?)…“collective consciousness field”…

Soros funded violence…Antifa…nothing to do with most kind hearted folk no matter their race or skin colour or country of birth…and no absolutely not “ashamed” of you Pete in any way shape or form…far from it…:heart:

The A rhesus negative in me salutes the O rhesus negative in you as the mother of 3 rhesus negative children…x :slight_smile:

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I do n’t think I have said that what you have posted has offended me. Totally surprised me that you can defend women who cover their faces.
Sharia Law is offensive to me, as is the proscriptions of Orthodox Jewry.In a year when we are celebrating 100 years of women’s suffrage in UK, I wonder what Emmeline Pankhurst would say about women choosing, or not, to dress in niquabs.
Christian churches are being burned in Egypt and other Muslim countries. Islam acknowledges that it wants the whole world to be Muslim, well thank goodness for countries like France and Denmark who are saying not here.

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Jane, I défend the right of à woman to dress as she wishes to. If we deprive her of that right, we are being as repressive and as intolerant of a basic freedom as you accuse Sharia law of being.

She is not wearing her garment to alienate you, or to flout your behavioural norms. In fact, to be frank, you have absolutely no idea what determines her decision to cover her face. You only have your theories, Jane.

In my view, it is better to respect a woman’s right to choose her wardrobe than to try to snatch it away, on a theory.

I’m not defending burqas or Islam, Jane, I am defending a woman’s right to choose.

Try to understand that, if you please. It’s quite simple.

As for Islam wanting to convert the world, Christianity is a missionary faith. Jesus said to his disciples, “I will make you fishers of men”. The mission of the Church is to bring all men (and women, presumably) to Christ, and to participate in His salvation. He declared, “I am the way, the truth and the life. No man cometh to the Father but by me.”

Pretty unequivocal, that, you may think. And spread by missionaries world-wide. Is anyone complaining about that?