The real problem is that there’s no F in jail term.
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Fifteen years has two Fs 
Democracy by its very nature does tend to mean having votes on things every now and again.
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Now that seems to me to be a sensible compromise where both sides of the debate can give and take a bit.
Clearly the EU is the UK’s closest trading opportunity, and as such it is only sensible for trade between the UK and the EU to be encouraged for the mutual benefit of both parties.
What is not acceptable is for the UK to be ruled over by a European Court, and in many ways governed from Europe by a collection of representatives from many other countries who have little knowledge of the customs and traditions of the UK.
Often there are complaints aired that the EU is an organisation that couldn’t organise the proverbial drunken evening in a brewery, due to the inability to obtain agreement between 27 countries which all have differing priorities.
So why would one wish one’s country to join such a grouping ?
I wonder sometimes whether those that are in favour of the UK rejoining the EU on the grounds of improving trade (financial gain), would also be in favour of the UK becoming the 51st State of the USA on the same grounds.
I know that I’ll be quickly corrected if I’m wrong, but I seem to recall that one of the founding principles of the EU is “Ever closer Union” with the word ‘Harmonisation’ often being used when really what is meant is Homogenisation. A slow but inevitable drip, drip, drip by which the UK ceases to be an independent country.
Sometimes I do get the impression that for many people the issue of whether the UK should be in or out of the EU is one of personal convenience rather than one of what is best to maintain the independent existence of their birth country.
Those of us who have come to France as immigrants have done so for very many different reasons. We have moved to a different country from the one that issues our passports and is it really so unreasonable to have to show said document at the border, change our money to the local currency, or have the correct paperwork for a pet.
We left the UK by our own choice. We are no longer part of UK daily life. We are immigrants to the EU. We make our lives in France, and personally I shall probably die here. What right do we have to suggest that the UK should rejoin an organisation with a founding aim of slowly morphing everything together until in effect my country of birth ceases to exist.
I like living in France, but I will always be English and I will never do anything likely to result in England becoming just another province of the United States of Europe.
I will not sacrifice my country for financial gain or personal convenience, so if you haven’t guessed by now, I’m not going to sign the petition mentioned at the start of this particular discussion.
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I don’t think the facts haver changed, the facts were there for all to see. Unfortunately the majority chose not to see them.
Nor me Robert.
The EU is better off without the whingeing British who have always been ‘reluctant’ Europeans.
I am a proud Briton, brought up with all the best British values but I love being in Europe and will die a proud European.
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A couple of fundamental flaws in that argument as the UK was not ruled over by a European court, it participated in a European court which passed judgement based on the laws that the UK helped shape (in some cases specifically drove) and had signed up to.
There’s a certain irony in using the US as an argument given that they’re pretty much the poster boy for states combining into an overarching entity.
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Closer ties to the Europe and all that entails yes please but the “long and winding road” to a full Breturn no thank you. The UK is struggling economically and Brexit is one of the main reasons but years of bitter argument and another referendum is not what the country needs, the EU ship has sailed and we’ll just have to accept that.
I have “liked” Robert Hodges’s post as I can understand some of his thinking
and I’ve "liked " JohnH’s because he corrects what so many Brits have been misunderstanding for years re the European Court 
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The result of Brexit might have been a lot different if we, British citizens but living outside the UK had been allowed to vote to what is still our country of birth and in most cases, the payer of our old age pension but I think those in charge and wanted out knew that and it was not offered.
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I can recognise that it’s the current reality but I’ll never accept it, and always try to change it, that’s what democracy is about.
I’m sufficiently realistic that I don’t see it happening in my lifetime but I’ll forever argue that we should seeking to join the EU for many reasons, not just economic.
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At whatever cost to the UK and for however many years of debate which will take up valuable parliamentary time etc?
I could always see that the EU was imperfect, the thought that slowly but surely all states were becoming vanilla people with only minor protected status for certain things. However to have any input in said EU setup you have to be part of the club as we in the UK have found. Just picking on 1 thing, electric cable colour harmonisation. We 3rd nation adopted the EU wiring colours, France hasn’t so the whining frogs don’t always action what they should either. Local laws etc can still take precedence over EU rules?
It’s daft that so many Brexiteers cannot wait to go abroad for their holidays
Well yes, but in every referendum I can recall there is usually a requirement for change to have about 55- 60% of the vote.
There were many lies; Johnson( who himself trollyied between In and Out based on his own ambitions) and Farage excelled themselves in this department and the consequences of BREXIT were not explained. “ all foreigners will go home immediately “ , seemed to be the reason many folk voted Yes.
No one, not even Farage, can claim that BREXIT has aided the UK’s economy.
The Dublin agreement went out the window, and THEN Farage starts moaning about small boats.; Experienced and well qualified practitioners left the UK, even famous Brexit supporters have pissed off.
And it appears there was Russian influence leading up to the vote. Can’t imagine what they might gain from a divided Europe!!!
So yes, theoretically democratic. But being ill informed and fed lies is like asking turkeys to vote for Christmas after you’ve told them they won’t be killed and they can join the party!!
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And moan about having to register, have fingerprints taken and passports stamped.
I best like those who already lived in Spain who voted to leave. They were aghast when they could only stay 90 /180 days.
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We should adopt the Welsh plan, sack MP’s that lie.
You could argue it’s the same for Scotland or Wales being ‘ruled’ by England. And I’m sure you would argue that Scotland and Wales arent ‘ruled’ by England as it’s a collective Union. Trouble with that is that it’s the same between the UK and the EU. It’s also a collective Union, and all parties have an equal say.
I know someone who lives on the south coast and used to go across to France to buy booze and other things 2 or 3 times a year. He voted for Brexit and then was shocked to find out that be couldn’t carry on doing this. I tried to explain that he had voted for free movement of goods to be restricted, but he insisted he’d been promised that this wouldn’t happen. He blamed the EU for ‘punishing’ the UK by putting restrictions in place. He subsequently came to the conclusion he’d been lied to and that what was promised was never going to happen. That’s not an unusual story, similar happened with my Brexit voting brother and his wife.
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Brexit lies caused a lot of family disputes. One of my BIL became so racist and a boot licking Fartyage acolyte I still find it hard to speak to him ten years on and only kept polite for the sake of my sister but the racism against the EU was awful and yet he wanted to visit me in France for holidays and go to Spain other times. Now he has turned his venting to the channel crossers and leaves us alone. Rumour has it he wants to visit me this year in the new house, gonna try and put that one off I can tell you.
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Yes people do not like taking responsibility for their own actions and I see that getting worse, same as Trump throwing Hegseth under the bus.